Putin Invades Ukraine II

SilentMajority
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:10 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:37 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:19 pm
Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:34 am
The fact is, you invade a country for no reason other than you want to there's a price to be paid and you're going to get international pushback.
Russia didn't invade Ukraine simply because it wanted to. Russia invaded Ukraine to protect Russian people who were being attacked there and to prevent NATO from expanding right up to the Russian border. The US would do the same thing in a heartbeat if an enemy alliance were threatening to expand up to the US border.
That these facts seem so misunderstood is a testament to the effectiveness of the full blown propaganda blitz from the western governments and media companies.

Since we have no way of stopping the US government from doing this, I guess we just have to watch the trainwreck and misery unfold while being lectured by CNN or FOX news about how moral it is and how everyone is some kind of Putin lover if they disagree.

I think if this were happening on the Mexican border after the Russians overthrew the Mexican government, the US military would probably have carpet bombed Mexico City and we'd already have millions or hundreds of thousands of dead civilians. The Russians seem to be fighting with one hand tied behind their backs.
stuper1
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:11 pm

SilentMajority wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:37 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:19 pm
Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:34 am
The fact is, you invade a country for no reason other than you want to there's a price to be paid and you're going to get international pushback.
Russia didn't invade Ukraine simply because it wanted to. Russia invaded Ukraine to protect Russian people who were being attacked there and to prevent NATO from expanding right up to the Russian border. The US would do the same thing in a heartbeat if an enemy alliance were threatening to expand up to the US border.
That these facts seem so misunderstood is a testament to the effectiveness of the full blown propaganda blitz from the western governments and media companies.

Since we have no way of stopping the US government from doing this, I guess we just have to watch the trainwreck and misery unfold while being lectured by CNN or FOX news about how moral it is and how everyone is some kind of Putin lover if they disagree.

I think if this were happening on the Mexican border after the Russians overthrew the Mexican government, the US military would probably have carpet bombed Mexico City and we'd already have millions or hundreds of thousands of dead civilians. The Russians seem to be fighting with one hand tied behind their backs.
And yet they say Putin is a butcher. He has been remarkably restrained up to now, which only makes sense, as many Russians feel a kinship with Ukraine, so he would be in hot water if he was unrestrained. The real butchers are the Americans who vetoed a proposed peace deal in March and essentially strong-armed Ukraine to keep fighting.
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:09 pm

We are butchers, for sure. Although we don’t kill our own people overseas with polonium or novichok.
Let 2022 be the year of GOLD
Building dream churches with silver spires /And our rogue children are playing loaded dice
stuper1
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:38 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:09 pm
We are butchers, for sure. Although we don’t kill our own people overseas with polonium or novichok.
I would take those "reports" with a grain of salt. Similar to the reports in Syria of Assad gassing his own people, which seem very likely to have been invented propaganda.

As I recall, Obama assassinated a US citizen with a drone strike without any due process, and nobody seemed too concerned about it (except for a few people who can actually think for themselves instead of believing everything that the mass media preaches to them and forces down their throats 24/7).
SilentMajority
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:10 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:05 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:38 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:09 pm
We are butchers, for sure. Although we don’t kill our own people overseas with polonium or novichok.
I would take those "reports" with a grain of salt. Similar to the reports in Syria of Assad gassing his own people, which seem very likely to have been invented propaganda.

As I recall, Obama assassinated a US citizen with a drone strike without any due process, and nobody seemed too concerned about it (except for a few people who can actually think for themselves instead of believing everything that the mass media preaches to them and forces down their throats 24/7).
Putin is ex kgb so no doubt he's ruthless. Whether this assassination actually was Putin it or if the guy was a foreign agent.....does any of that justify a war that's killing thousands and causing misery for millions? The US government policy seems designed to cause mass misery but then of course look at the people running it. They've wanted war with Russia for years
stuper1
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:06 pm

The poisoning story on its face is stupid. I'm pretty sure if Putin wanted you dead, you'd be dead, not wandering around Europe claiming that you had been poisoned with some esoteric isotope that sounds like it should be in a spy novel. I could be wrong, but it just sounds like the kind of story somebody will make up to gin up outrage against those heartless Russians ruled by a cruel tyrant. These stories have been used since time immemorial. Remember the Kaiser's troops passing around Belgian babies on the points of bayonets in WW1?
User avatar
Kriegsspiel
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3981
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:33 pm

SilentMajority wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:24 am
3. The US attempted no diplomacy and gave zero consideration to Russian security concerns or the people in the Donbass.
I actually don't disagree with anything you said. But to clarify, I meant that US diplomacy failed to reel in the Ukrainian government from going after the Donbassians (?). I think if Obama, or whoever, would have called the Ukrainians and told them, "hey you fucks, knock it off. Don't you remember how WW I started?" They would have backed off*, wrong-footing a Russian cassus belli to take Ukraine.

*Speculative. As we saw the Azov BN defied their own president. Maybe they respected Poroshenko more. From the Ukrainian POV, ceding the Donbas and Crimea would have been a smart move if they wanted to join the EU and NATO.
And as for him who lacks the courage to defend even his own soul: Let him not brag of his progressive views, boast of his status as an academician or a recognized artist, a distinguished citizen or general. Let him say to himself plainly: I am cattle, I am a coward, I seek only warmth and to eat my fill.
Solzhenitsyn, Live Not By Lies
User avatar
Kriegsspiel
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3981
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:37 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:09 pm
polonium or novichok.
SilentMajority wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:05 pm
Putin is ex kgb so no doubt he's ruthless. Whether this assassination actually was Putin it or if the guy was a foreign agent.....
stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:06 pm
poisoning story on its face is stupid. I'm pretty sure if Putin wanted you dead, you'd be dead, not wandering around Europe claiming that you had been poisoned with some esoteric isotope that sounds like it should be in a spy novel. I could be wrong, but it just sounds like the kind of story somebody will make up to gin up outrage against those heartless Russians ruled by a cruel tyrant. These stories have been used since time immemorial.
I've read enough Bond novels to know that SMERSH's reach is worldwide.
And as for him who lacks the courage to defend even his own soul: Let him not brag of his progressive views, boast of his status as an academician or a recognized artist, a distinguished citizen or general. Let him say to himself plainly: I am cattle, I am a coward, I seek only warmth and to eat my fill.
Solzhenitsyn, Live Not By Lies
SilentMajority
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:10 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:14 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:33 pm
SilentMajority wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:24 am
3. The US attempted no diplomacy and gave zero consideration to Russian security concerns or the people in the Donbass.
I actually don't disagree with anything you said. But to clarify, I meant that US diplomacy failed to reel in the Ukrainian government from going after the Donbassians (?).
Ok thanks for clarifying. I had read that as you thought US diplomacy failed in preventing the war which confused me. I've been following the events there daily since before the shooting started and the only US "diplomacy" from the Biden regime has been threats, like blowing up Russian pipelines which they've done. Everything has been an attempt to start war, not to prevent it.

I think it will backfire on them (the Biden regime), but maybe not. The Germans are on the streets en masse protesting all this, and looks like the majority of the people world are either indifferent or support Russia. The Americans seem to not have a clue and are totally disconnected from reality due to the endless propaganda.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7903
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:39 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:38 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:09 pm

We are butchers, for sure. Although we don’t kill our own people overseas with polonium or novichok.


I would take those "reports" with a grain of salt. Similar to the reports in Syria of Assad gassing his own people, which seem very likely to have been invented propaganda.

As I recall, Obama assassinated a US citizen with a drone strike without any due process, and nobody seemed too concerned about it (except for a few people who can actually think for themselves instead of believing everything that the mass media preaches to them and forces down their throats 24/7).



There were many progressives who were not happy with this.

https://progressive.org/latest/obama-ge ... -citizens/

Obama Gets Slippery on Killing U.S. Citizens
BY MATTHEW ROTHSCHILD MAY 23, 2013 9:47 PM
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2756
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm

Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella
User avatar
Dieter
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 577
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:51 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Dieter » Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:12 pm

Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm
Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella
I’ve appreciated your and Kriegs posts on this topic

Slava Ukraine
stuper1
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:33 pm

Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm
Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella
I'm an American, not Russian, and not even close to being hard right, unless being a non-voting Libertarian is considered hard right these days. Just answer one question: if Russia was pushing a defensive alliance up to our Canadian or Mexican border, would we take it lying down or would we push back? Especially if Russia had promised 33 years ago not to do such a thing, which was what the US did when the Soviet Union broke up in 1989.
User avatar
Dieter
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 577
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:51 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Dieter » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:02 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:33 pm
Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm
Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella
I'm an American, not Russian, and not even close to being hard right, unless being a non-voting Libertarian is considered hard right these days. Just answer one question: if Russia was pushing a defensive alliance up to our Canadian or Mexican border, would we take it lying down or would we push back? Especially if Russia had promised 33 years ago not to do such a thing, which was what the US did when the Soviet Union broke up in 1989.
IMO, the Eastern Europeans were / are smart not to trust Russia for their peace and security. There is history there.

No treaty was broken by the west.

As long as Russia has nukes, they aren’t going to be attacked by any NATO or non-NATO country.

War of aggression by Russia, phase not the first
stuper1
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:18 pm

It works both ways though doesn't it. The Russians have been attacked from their west several times before and had huge numbers of casualties in the process. They have little reason to respect promises from European countries.

So, I guess what you are saying is that the US wouldn't push back if an enemy pushed an alliance up to our borders. We have nukes so nobody is going to dare attack us, right. So we wouldn't need to be concerned about an alliance pushing right up to our borders. I have my doubts that it would play out like that, but who knows maybe you are right. I don't think any of us has all the information we would like to have. We're just trying to make sense of things based on scattered pieces of information that we come across.
stuper1
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:15 am

The situation after the end of the Cold War and break up of the Soviet Union is reminiscent of the time after WW1 when the allies forced a terrible treaty onto Germany. If the allies had been more gracious in their victory and not forced brutal reparations onto Germany, who was by no means the only party at fault for starting WW1, then Hitler probably never would have been able to come to power and WW2 would never have happened.

Similarly, if the US had been more gracious after the end of the Cold War and hadn't pushed a narrative that Russia is to be feared and hadn't pushed NATO up to the doorstep of Russia, then Russian may not have felt the need to attack Ukraine (setting aside for the moment the issue of attacks on Russian parts of Ukraine by the Ukrainian government in recent years). Sure, there was no written treaty saying that NATO couldn't expand to Russia's doorstep, but that doesn't make it wise to push NATO that far, just as it wasn't wise to push Germany so far after WW1, leading to Hitler's rise. Several wise foreign policy experts, people like George Kennan, have been saying this very thing for the past 30 years, but the military-industrial complex won't listen because there is a lot of money to be made by expanding NATO.
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:54 am

KYIV, Ukraine—Russia unleashed a fresh barrage of attacks across Ukraine on Wednesday, striking critical infrastructure in the capital, Kyiv’s mayor said, after a missile hit a maternity ward in the country’s south earlier in the day
— WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-str ... 1669196039
Let 2022 be the year of GOLD
Building dream churches with silver spires /And our rogue children are playing loaded dice
SilentMajority
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:10 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:05 am

Dieter wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:02 pm
IMO, the Eastern Europeans were / are smart not to trust Russia for their peace and security. There is history there.

No treaty was broken by the west.

As long as Russia has nukes, they aren’t going to be attacked by any NATO or non-NATO country.

War of aggression by Russia, phase not the first
I work with a lot of Czechs, Slovaks and some Hungarians/Romanians and they all despise Russia, Putin, and don't trust them one bit. I sympathize with that, as someone that's studied WW2 heavily and am well aware of the rape, pillaging, murder, and subjugation of Eastern/Central Europe including Germany by the Soviets.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you're Bulgarian right? I don't know many Bulgarians, but I like Grigor Dimitrov and own a couple Bulgarian rifles FWIW. The quality of Bulgarian AKs is right up there with the Poles or even better.

Hatred and mistrust of Russia might be very well-founded, and perceiving this as a "war of aggression" might also be understandable. To discount the Russian perspective though is what has caused the situation. Overthrowing the government in Kiev, supporting attacks on Russian populations in the East of what was called "Ukraine", and threatening to put NATO military bases, fwd artillery batteries, tactical nukes etc. on the Eastern edge of Ukraine and pointed at the heart of Russia was a bridge too far for them.

The current Russian government will never permit this under any circumstances and the population is almost certainly going to back them up big time. They will look at it as a matter of life and death. That's their perspective and it's not been respected. They asked repeatedly for declarations of Ukraine neutrality and for NATO to reject the idea of Ukraine membership, and this was all refused. I think Russia multiple times has petitioned for NATO membership itself.

From where I stand the West has been the aggressor completely. We disagree, that's fine. Adults should be able to disagree without going into name-calling. Unfortunately the TV propaganda has small vocal minority in America calling anyone who disagrees with the government narrative a Russian bot or Putin-lover. It's like a Pavlovian response so the people who believe what the TV tells them never have to explain why they believe it, because it falls apart so quickly. Some people here believe Russia launched this operation "just because they wanted to".

Regardless, most people want peace, trade, happiness, safety and security. Musk suggested a path forward through diplomacy and democracy and the Kiev regime called him a Putin lover or something or said "F U". They have shot down every attempt at peaceful resolution and now shot missiles into Poland (Zelinsky is still calling them Russian missiles I think, maybe he didn't get the memo). They are posting videos on Twitter of torturing and executing surrendered Russian soldiers. They post images of torture of Russian sympathizers in recaptured towns. I think this morning they are raiding and humiliating the Orthodox church in Kiev and calling them Russian Sympathizers. This is counter productive towards peace.

The only hope for peace is probably what KBG suggested: The US removes all support for the Kiev government, then all the other Euro countries will follow quickly and Zelinsky will accept a peace agreement or risk losing Kiev.
Last edited by SilentMajority on Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7903
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:08 am

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:33 pm

Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm

Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella


I'm an American, not Russian, and not even close to being hard right, unless being a non-voting Libertarian is considered hard right these days. Just answer one question: if Russia was pushing a defensive alliance up to our Canadian or Mexican border, would we take it lying down or would we push back? Especially if Russia had promised 33 years ago not to do such a thing, which was what the US did when the Soviet Union broke up in 1989.


You have your answer in the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, 40 years ago. Because Russia installed missiles in Cuba, we were ready to go to thermonuclear war, invade Cuba, and other less drastic measures.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
SilentMajority
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:10 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:12 am

Dieter wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:02 pm
As long as Russia has nukes, they aren’t going to be attacked by any NATO or non-NATO country.
It's about first-strike capability, who can move faster, tactical nukes etc. There's a reason the US couldn't tolerate Soviet nukes in Cuba, even though we obliterate Russia afterwards.

Also, it's possible a war could only involve conventional forces and neither side pull the trigger on nukes to avoid destroying the planet. If this were the case, NATO would have armored divisions 300 km from the Volga and able to cut off the Caucus from the heart of Russia. Well they aren't going to permit that.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7903
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:12 am

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:15 am

The situation after the end of the Cold War and break up of the Soviet Union is reminiscent of the time after WW1 when the allies forced a terrible treaty onto Germany. If the allies had been more gracious in their victory and not forced brutal reparations onto Germany, who was by no means the only party at fault for starting WW1, then Hitler probably never would have been able to come to power and WW2 would never have happened.

Similarly, if the US had been more gracious after the end of the Cold War and hadn't pushed a narrative that Russia is to be feared and hadn't pushed NATO up to the doorstep of Russia, then Russian may not have felt the need to attack Ukraine (setting aside for the moment the issue of attacks on Russian parts of Ukraine by the Ukrainian government in recent years). Sure, there was no written treaty saying that NATO couldn't expand to Russia's doorstep, but that doesn't make it wise to push NATO that far, just as it wasn't wise to push Germany so far after WW1, leading to Hitler's rise. Several wise foreign policy experts, people like George Kennan, have been saying this very thing for the past 30 years, but the military-industrial complex won't listen because there is a lot of money to be made by expanding NATO.


1) I know that the popular opinion is that the treaty from World War I led to Hitler and World War II. But I've recently read from a few sources that this now falls into myth territory.

2) How should the United States been more gracious after the end of the Cold War? What was pushed was that we would now have no more wars and that we be reaping the benefits of peace dividends.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
SilentMajority
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:10 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:12 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:08 am
stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:33 pm
Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm
Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella
I'm an American, not Russian, and not even close to being hard right, unless being a non-voting Libertarian is considered hard right these days. Just answer one question: if Russia was pushing a defensive alliance up to our Canadian or Mexican border, would we take it lying down or would we push back? Especially if Russia had promised 33 years ago not to do such a thing, which was what the US did when the Soviet Union broke up in 1989.
You have your answer in the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, 40 years ago. Because Russia installed missiles in Cuba, we were ready to go to thermonuclear war, invade Cuba, and other less drastic measures.
Thanks V, I was literally just writing that.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7903
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:14 am

SilentMajority wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:12 am

Dieter wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:02 pm

As long as Russia has nukes, they aren’t going to be attacked by any NATO or non-NATO country.


It's about first-strike capability, who can move faster, tactical nukes etc. There's a reason the US couldn't tolerate Soviet nukes in Cuba, even though we obliterate Russia afterwards.

Also, it's possible a war could only involve conventional forces and neither side pull the trigger on nukes to avoid destroying the planet. If this were the case, NATO would have armored divisions 300 km from the Volga and able to cut off the Caucus from the heart of Russia. Well they aren't going to permit that.


Or, it could have been typical American hubris wherein we could do certain things in certain parts of the world but other countries were not allowed to do similarly to us.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
SilentMajority
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:10 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:18 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:54 am
KYIV, Ukraine—Russia unleashed a fresh barrage of attacks across Ukraine on Wednesday, striking critical infrastructure in the capital, Kyiv’s mayor said, after a missile hit a maternity ward in the country’s south earlier in the day
— WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-str ... 1669196039
A terrible tragedy is unfolding. If peace can't be achieved very very soon, the winter is going to be horrible for Ukraine and miserable for lots of Europe. The Ukrainian demands of Russian surrendering all the contested territory with Russian populations will never be acceptable, so I'm afraid it will continue and get worse until the West pulls the rug out from under the Kiev regime.

Of course any US politician or prominent figure that suggests this is denounced as a Russian-bot, Putin-lover on the spot by the media and Ukraine flag people, and threated by the US government with investigations and harassment.
User avatar
Desert
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3565
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:39 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Desert » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:38 am

Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm
Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.


#NAFOfella
Thanks for your posts, Kbg, and I agree 100 percent.
Post Reply