Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:30 am

On the bigger picture of this internationally…

Should we have cared when Italy invaded Ethiopia?

Should we have cared when Germany invaded the Balkins?

Should we have cared when Japan invaded China?

Should we have cared when Iraq invaded Kuwait?

Throw in Korea, Vietnam? I’m sure there are more.

IDK, is no corruption a new standard to oppose unlawful invasion of sovereign borders?

For that matter, was France in error when they supported a bunch of tax cheats in North America? Parliament was elected according to the laws at the time.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:08 pm

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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:25 pm

I don’t want Tortoise or Kriegs to think all people who support Ukraine and more specifically the idea of us arming Ukraine as vacuous “Russia bad / Ukraine good” and “I support the current thing” non-thinkers. I mean, if you do believe that, so be it, but it’s not the case.

I know the Ukraine government is corrupt. That doesn’t mean we should let the Russians roll in and bomb civilians just because Putin craves one last Peter the Great hurrah before he dies. And let’s not forget Russian civilians. They didn’t ask to be swept up into this either. They’re being conscripted; their lives are being uprooted as well. And let’s not forget foglifter’s posts.

I just don’t see appeasement as a wise long-term solution, even if Kissinger does.
Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:30 am

IDK, is no corruption a new standard to oppose unlawful invasion of sovereign borders?
+1 to this rhetorical question
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:35 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:25 pm

I don’t want Tortoise or Kriegs to think all people who support Ukraine and more specifically the idea of us arming Ukraine as vacuous “Russia bad / Ukraine good” and “I support the current thing” non-thinkers. I mean, if you do believe that, so be it, but it’s not the case.

I know the Ukraine government is corrupt. That doesn’t mean we should let the Russians roll in and bomb civilians just because Putin craves one last Peter the Great hurrah before he dies. And let’s not forget Russian civilians. They didn’t ask to be swept up into this either. They’re being conscripted; their lives are being uprooted as well. And let’s not forget foglifter’s posts.

I just don’t see appeasement as a wise long-term solution, even if Kissinger does.

Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:30 am


IDK, is no corruption a new standard to oppose unlawful invasion of sovereign borders?


+1 to this rhetorical question


Were we supposed to have been been able to click "foglifter's" so that it would bring us somewhere?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Mark Leavy » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:40 pm

I'm in the camp that if the US is going to war, be it Real War, Proxy War, Amicus Curiae, Arm's Dealing, whatever...

Then it should be war. No conditions. We bomb the shit out of everything. Rape the women. Steal the priceless artifacts. Salt the earth. Enslave the conquered. Appropriate the natural resources. Heads on Pikes.

If you don't have the stomach for that, then No War. This half assed shit is stupid. War or No War. There is no Try.

Putting US blood and treasure on half measures just exacerbates and extends the problem. The only reason to not go HAM is because it is more profitable to extend the war and keep selling munitions.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:55 pm

This is all so astounding regarding Russia that I could not resist sharing it here:

Mother Russia
1 Triumph in Space, Hunger on Earth
In 1957 the bleeping Sputnik satellite delivered to its Russian owners, bursting with pride, their biggest propaganda triumph since victory in the Great Patriotic War, twelve years earlier. Sputnik supposedly implied a capability to dominate US skies with nuclear weapons. In April 1961, there followed another space achievement which put the fear of God, or rather of the godless communists, into millions of patriotic Americans: the USSR won the race to become the first to propel a man into earth orbit. Yuri Gagarin’s space flight made a superstar of the handsome young lieutenant, promptly elevated to major. In homes across Russia news of his flight, broadcast by the famous Radio Moscow announcer Yuri Levitan, prompted an orgy of national rejoicing. ‘People ran out into the street, laughed, congratulated each other,’ wrote young Muscovite Galina Artemieva. ‘It was such a happy, unforgettable day!’ The world nervously hailed a superpower seen to be outpacing America. Many people, some of them in Washington, saw the Soviet spaceman as symbolic of a communist society apparently advancing by giant steps. They even began to delude themselves that some of the blizzard of statistics emerging from the Soviet Union, asserting its own military, economic and social achievements, might be authentic.

Extraordinary though it seems today, such influential gurus as Paul Samuelson and J.K. Galbraith predicted that the Soviet economy was likely within a generation to overtake that of the United States. Henry Kissinger, then teaching at Harvard, wrote that ‘the United States cannot afford another decline like that which has characterized the past decade and half’, which threatened to ‘find us reduced to Fortress America in a world in which we had become largely irrelevant’.

The full Gagarin story did not emerge for decades. It lays bare the rickety, rackety, mortally dangerous technology that was deployed to make possible the Soviet Union’s achievement. As the pilot accelerated through the atmosphere, for several terrifying seconds his rocket’s third-stage engine signalled a malfunction. Later, as the Vostok 1 spacecraft decelerated from 18,000 mph for re-entry, it failed to slow sufficiently quickly for its braking engine to fall away. The capsule spun wildly; Gagarin could feel its protective shell cracking, burning. He was reprieved only when the braking engine cable snapped. Having ejected above Russia after 106 minutes, the spaceman’s survival pack fell off and the breathing valve on his helmet stuck. His reserve parachute blew open accidentally, which could have killed him. When he finally landed in a potato field near the Volga, the world’s first cosmonaut was obliged to borrow a horse to get to a phone to summon rescuers.

Here was, indeed, a symbolic vision of post-Stalin Russia: a society endowed with remarkable scientific and technical skills, unmatched by production capability. The country could not build a car, washing machine or electric toaster that anyone outside its own borders would choose to buy. Mice once invaded an arsenal in central Russia and ate the insulation on missiles stored there: hundreds of cats had to be recruited to address the plague. When Sergei Korolev, the Soviet rocket designer who played a prominent part in Gagarin’s flight, heard of this, he was reduced to hysterical laughter. The general in charge of the arsenal was sacked; fortunate not to be shot. In October 1960 a new R-16 rocket exploded on its launch pad, incinerating almost a hundred people including the officer in command of Soviet missile forces, whose remains were identified only by a marshal’s shoulder pad and half-melted office key found in the ashes.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:29 pm

In this do we see parallels between Putin's mindset and Khrushchev's mindset? By the way, this book was written in June 2022 and in it the author does make frequent parallels between Russia of 1962 and the Russia of now as witnessed by its invasion of Ukraine earlier this year.


At the heart of Kremlin foreign policy was a determination to assert the Soviet Union’s greatness, founded upon its military strength and achievements, together with its claimed status as ideological leader of the communist world and ruler of an empire that had expanded even as those of the old European powers shrank. It aspired to punish American triumphalism, rooted in economic and nuclear dominance. Khrushchev’s son Sergei said: ‘We lived all the time here with enemies on the gates. Americans were surrounded by two oceans, they were protected. They were like the strongest predator in the world, like a tiger, but a tiger which grew up in a zoo, and when sent into the jungle they were afraid of everything. Stalin had accepted the [1944–45] American and Churchill deal: “You must be kept in your borders. We agree that you will dominate Eastern Europe; the rest is the Western world, it’s our world. Don’t even put your nose in the Middle East.” But my father said: “No. I want to be a world power. I want to be respected as an equal.” And Americans don’t respect anybody as equal.’ Moreover Khrushchev sincerely believed that Cubans, Congolese, Vietnamese and suchlike peoples could enjoy better lives under communism than under exploitative capitalism.

He professed to mock Stalin’s fear of war with the nuclear-armed West. William Taubman has written that he ‘determined not only to seem fearless but to strike fear into his Western opponents’. The Russian said privately that when first he was briefed about nuclear weapons he could not sleep for several days, but then he realized that it was impossible ever to use them, and thus began to sleep again. Contradictorily, however, he also convinced himself that this reality empowered him to brandish the spectre of nuclear war without risking its occurrence. He began to threaten the West with the USSR’s R-7 intercontinental ballistic missile before the weapon had even been flight-tested. Following the Anglo-French withdrawal from Egypt after their 1956 invasion, Khrushchev persuaded himself that this was the fruit of Soviet nuclear threats rather than – in reality – of American financial ones. Sergei Khrushchev wrote: ‘Father was extraordinarily proud of his victory.’ The Soviet leader concluded that nuclear weapons were all-conquering; that the mere fact of possession, together with an apparent willingness to use them, could be wielded as decisive weapons on the world stage.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:01 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:40 pm

I'm in the camp that if the US is going to war, be it Real War, Proxy War, Amicus Curiae, Arm's Dealing, whatever...

Then it should be war. No conditions. We bomb the shit out of everything. Rape the women. Steal the priceless artifacts. Salt the earth. Enslave the conquered. Appropriate the natural resources. Heads on Pikes.

If you don't have the stomach for that, then No War. This half assed shit is stupid. War or No War. There is no Try.

Putting US blood and treasure on half measures just exacerbates and extends the problem. The only reason to not go HAM is because it is more profitable to extend the war and keep selling munitions.


"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"??

As for the Pentagon chiefs, in 1962 there were few democratic nations in the world where generals and admirals could exercise real clout against political leaders, but the United States was one of them. Many Americans, especially those away from the East Coast, took pride in their armed forces; knew the names of some commanders; respected their opinions. It is hard to overrate the influence wielded by the chiefs of staff – respectively heads of the army, navy, air force and Marine Corps – on Congress and its powerful committee chairmen. The brass wanted more of everything, however futile, and formed alliances with legislators panting for pork – defence contracts for their states. The cost-conscious McNamara fought them up hill and down dale.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by flyingpylon » Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:36 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:40 pm
I'm in the camp that if the US is going to war, be it Real War, Proxy War, Amicus Curiae, Arm's Dealing, whatever...

Then it should be war. No conditions. We bomb the shit out of everything. Rape the women. Steal the priceless artifacts. Salt the earth. Enslave the conquered. Appropriate the natural resources. Heads on Pikes.

If you don't have the stomach for that, then No War. This half assed shit is stupid. War or No War. There is no Try.

Putting US blood and treasure on half measures just exacerbates and extends the problem. The only reason to not go HAM is because it is more profitable to extend the war and keep selling munitions.
This is true of so many issues, and why there is so much frustration with establishment politicians. Their priorities are clearly not the same as most Americans (left or right) that just want problems solved. They just keep stringing us along.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by I Shrugged » Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:51 am

Who here would support their children or nieces and nephews bring sent to fight Russia? Do you draw the line there? We are at war with Russia, but currently by proxy.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by joypog » Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:57 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:51 am
Who here would support their children or nieces and nephews bring sent to fight Russia? Do you draw the line there? We are at war with Russia, but currently by proxy.
I mean, that's kind of the point of supporting them with materiel. This is an amazing value play for the projection of American power. If the Ukrainians folded, I wouldn't support escalating the war. But if their people want to fight it out, then I say give the Ukrainians to the tools to sacrifice themselves to make Russia weaker (and a shining example to China that we'll similarly support Taiwan if they get ideas about invading). Might as well have the proxy war held in non-NATO territory where we can't get our own citizens drawn into a conflict by treaty.

(btw this sounds totally cynical...but as y'all know, I'm a total sucker for freedom vs tyranny propaganda narrative — however, I also think the USA has some obvious incentives play power politics to support the Ukrainians as long it avoids sending our folks directly into the fight. Indeed, I think the long term risk of direct confrontation is lowered by helping Ukraine stop Putin's expansionist tendencies today, as opposed to pulling support and waiting for the next confrontation.)
Last edited by joypog on Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:33 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:51 am

Who here would support their children or nieces and nephews bring sent to fight Russia? Do you draw the line there? We are at war with Russia, but currently by proxy.


Not me. Yes, at this time, I'd draw the line there.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:30 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:35 pm
Were we supposed to have been been able to click "foglifter's" so that it would bring us somewhere?
Why, because it's purple? No. You can tell when you quote it. It's merely size and color. Actually, there's an easier way to tell: if you hover over something with your cursor and you don't see don't see a link at the bottom of your screen, it's not a link.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:34 pm

joypog wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:57 am
I Shrugged wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:51 am
Who here would support their children or nieces and nephews bring sent to fight Russia? Do you draw the line there? We are at war with Russia, but currently by proxy.
I mean, that's kind of the point of supporting them with materiel. This is a killer value play for American projection power. If the Ukrainians folded, I wouldn't support escalating the war. But if they want to fight it out, then I say give the Ukrainian people to the tools to sacrifice themselves to make Russia weaker (and a shining example to China that we'll similarly support Taiwan if they get ideas about invading). Might as well have the proxy war in non-NATO territory where we can't get our own civilians drawn into the conflict by treaty.

(btw this sounds totally cynical...but as y'all know, I'm totally bought into the freedom vs tyranny propaganda narrative (albeit unsurprised that Ukraine was/continues/returns into being a corrupt hot mess as most nations do), but I think the USA has some obvious power politic incentives in this situation.)
I feel the same as joypog. We're not pushing the Ukrainians into war. They want to fight. But sending our own soldiers? No. Not only do we not want the casualties, but Americans don't fight Russians directly, and there's a good reason for that.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:38 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:51 am
Who here would support their children or nieces and nephews bring sent to fight Russia? Do you draw the line there? We are at war with Russia, but currently by proxy.
Not yet, happy to send my tax dollars though. An attack on a NATO country, yep...as they did for us into Afghanistan and even into Iraq.

It's pretty interesting to see countries various levels of support...anyone who was under the Soviet yoke is contributing far more than we are proportionally.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:08 pm

Kbg wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:38 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:51 am

Who here would support their children or nieces and nephews bring sent to fight Russia? Do you draw the line there? We are at war with Russia, but currently by proxy.


Not yet, happy to send my tax dollars though. An attack on a NATO country, yep...as they did for us into Afghanistan and even into Iraq.

It's pretty interesting to see countries various levels of support...anyone who was under the Soviet yoke is contributing far more than we are proportionally.


Had not known that!
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by boglerdude » Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:01 pm

More ink spilled

https://hwfo.substack.com/p/putin-shoul ... it-basket/
Some comments about pipelines. The media wont ever say "Iraq/Afghanistan/X war is pumping X billions into the US economy" because that sounds mean. At some price point trading blood for oil does make sense. Not my blood obviously
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:32 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:08 pm
Had not known that!
https://www.statista.com/chart/27331/co ... raine-aid/

https://www.statista.com/chart/28489/uk ... id-donors/

Americans tend to think the planet revolves around us and we often ignore what other countries are doing/up to. Our support to Ukraine is "average" for those supporting the country.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:47 am

Kbg wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:32 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:08 pm

Had not known that!


https://www.statista.com/chart/27331/co ... raine-aid/

https://www.statista.com/chart/28489/uk ... id-donors/

Americans tend to think the planet revolves around us and we often ignore what other countries are doing/up to. Our support to Ukraine is "average" for those supporting the country.


It was the same after 9/11 when a coworker told me how surprised she'd been to learn that many non-Americans had also died that day. I told her it was because a death does not count if it is not an American death.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:32 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:25 pm
I don’t want Tortoise or Kriegs to think all people who support Ukraine and more specifically the idea of us arming Ukraine as vacuous “Russia bad / Ukraine good” and “I support the current thing” non-thinkers. I mean, if you do believe that, so be it, but it’s not the case.

I know the Ukraine government is corrupt. That doesn’t mean we should let the Russians roll in and bomb civilians just because Putin craves one last Peter the Great hurrah before he dies.
Think about it like this; the post-coup Ukrainian government has been bombing civilians since 2014. Not the ones in Crimea though (those civilians were protected by Russia), but they did cut off the water supply to them*. Why aren't you supportive of the Russians not letting the American-backed Ukrainians bomb civilians? Russia failed in their diplomatic attempts, just like we did. They supplied arms and equipment, just like we are. Then when those were unsuccessful, they took it to the next level and invaded.

I get that it's all in the framing. But if you are against the bombing of civilians, you shouldn't be supporting the Ukrainian government.

* This is probably one of the reasons Russia feels it needs to control the Crimean Canal in Kherson. Speculative.
And let’s not forget Russian civilians. They didn’t ask to be swept up into this either. They’re being conscripted; their lives are being uprooted as well. And let’s not forget foglifter’s posts.
Agreed. Ukrainian civilians as well. Ukrainian civilians were, and still are AFAIK, also rounded up (and prevented from fleeing the country if they were a military-age male) & conscripted. These were evidently people who would not have fought unless they were forced to, which I would say bolsters my stance that the fight in Ukraine is to prop up the current government, not to protect the general populace.
I just don’t see appeasement as a wise long-term solution, even if Kissinger does.
Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:30 am

IDK, is no corruption a new standard to oppose unlawful invasion of sovereign borders?
+1 to this rhetorical question
With 20/20 hindsight, I think the saddest aspect is the failure of the Obama administration to get the situation under control via diplomatic means when it kicked off. It's sad because it was our foreign policy to cause disasters all around the periphery of Russia, and this one has given them a cassus belli to invade Ukraine. Maybe with the implementation of the Minsk Accords, or something like them, this all could have been avoided. Something like them might be what finally puts an end to it.
And as for him who lacks the courage to defend even his own soul: Let him not brag of his progressive views, boast of his status as an academician or a recognized artist, a distinguished citizen or general. Let him say to himself plainly: I am cattle, I am a coward, I seek only warmth and to eat my fill.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:22 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:32 pm

Think about it like this; the post-coup Ukrainian government has been bombing civilians since 2014. Not the ones in Crimea though (those civilians were protected by Russia), but they did cut off the water supply to them*. Why aren't you supportive of the Russians not letting the American-backed Ukrainians bomb civilians? Russia failed in their diplomatic attempts, just like we did. They supplied arms and equipment, just like we are. Then when those were unsuccessful, they took it to the next level and invaded.

I get that it's all in the framing. But if you are against the bombing of civilians, you shouldn't be supporting the Ukrainian government.

* This is probably one of the reasons Russia feels it needs to control the Crimean Canal in Kherson. Speculative.

It’s a ‘strange bedfellows’ situation. Again, it’s not a ‘Ukraine good, Russia bad’ situation. Russia was ok when it was falling apart under Yeltsin (except for ll the nuclear weapon sales to shady individuals and orgs around the world). The Soviet Union and modern Russia are so overwhelmingly bad that I have to side with Ukraine, its own crimes notwithstanding. And yes, the U.S.’ own history is not impeccable. Better to have Ukraine as an ally and work toward their change for the better (admittedly, a chance that won’t necessarily come; it might never come)

Call me cynical, or just realistic.

I will never believe that the Putin was goaded into invading Ukraine any more than the Japanese were tricked into WWII. Russian history and Putin’s own words speak otherwise.
dualstow wrote:And let’s not forget Russian civilians. They didn’t ask to be swept up into this either. They’re being conscripted; their lives are being uprooted as well. And let’s not forget foglifter’s posts.
kriegsspiel wrote:Agreed. Ukrainian civilians as well. Ukrainian civilians were, and still are AFAIK, also rounded up (and prevented from fleeing the country if they were a military-age male) & conscripted. These were evidently people who would not have fought unless they were forced to, which I would say bolsters my stance that the fight in Ukraine is to prop up the current government, not to protect the general populace.
I’ve read about that too, about them being prevented from fleeing, and I believe it.
They’re not perfect. But look how many Ukrainians are willing to fight. The Russians never expected it.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:24 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:32 pm
dualstow wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:25 pm
I don’t want Tortoise or Kriegs to think all people who support Ukraine and more specifically the idea of us arming Ukraine as vacuous “Russia bad / Ukraine good” and “I support the current thing” non-thinkers. I mean, if you do believe that, so be it, but it’s not the case.

I know the Ukraine government is corrupt. That doesn’t mean we should let the Russians roll in and bomb civilians just because Putin craves one last Peter the Great hurrah before he dies.
Think about it like this; the post-coup Ukrainian government has been bombing civilians since 2014. Not the ones in Crimea though (those civilians were protected by Russia), but they did cut off the water supply to them*. Why aren't you supportive of the Russians not letting the American-backed Ukrainians bomb civilians? Russia failed in their diplomatic attempts, just like we did. They supplied arms and equipment, just like we are. Then when those were unsuccessful, they took it to the next level and invaded.

The difference between the Russian aid to the people in the Donbass vs the US support for the illegal coup government in Kiev is:

1. The people in the Donbass are actually Russians. The US gov't has no business here other than funny business "human trafficking and money
laundering to US politicians and bio weapons manufacturing.
2. The US "aid" is designed to prolong the killing of Russians and Ukrainians, not protect life. The idea that it's protecting life is laughable.
3. The US attempted no diplomacy and gave zero consideration to Russian security concerns or the people in the Donbass.
4. The idea of Ukraine joining NATO is something the Russians cannot, under any circumstance allow
a. The so-called country of Ukraine (a hodgepodge of Russia, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Russia, and some area in the middle you could call
Ukraine, actually runs EAST of Moscow into open steppe. Russia can't allow NATO tanks and mech divisions sitting their or fwd artillery or
missile batteries.
b. The USSR lost 28M in WW2, most being Russian. The Axis invaded straight through Ukraine, with soldiers from Germany, Italy, Romania,
Austria, Hungary, Croatia, Bulgaria. It should be obvious to anyone with a casual interest in history why they can't have an enemy military
alliance right on this border. The entire world benefits from a neutral Ukraine.

Americans supporting continued war are supporting the suffering of tens of millions of Ukrainians, women, children etc. They are supporting misery and death there and suffering in Europe from impoverishment and soaring energy prices. One of the posters actually hit the nail on the head when they said the goal is to "bleed" Russia or something. I'm not sure why that's a goal through. It's like they still believe the Russia election hoax from the democrats in 2016 or something.
Kbg
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:34 am

SilentMajority wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:24 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:32 pm
dualstow wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:25 pm
I don’t want Tortoise or Kriegs to think all people who support Ukraine and more specifically the idea of us arming Ukraine as vacuous “Russia bad / Ukraine good” and “I support the current thing” non-thinkers. I mean, if you do believe that, so be it, but it’s not the case.

I know the Ukraine government is corrupt. That doesn’t mean we should let the Russians roll in and bomb civilians just because Putin craves one last Peter the Great hurrah before he dies.
Think about it like this; the post-coup Ukrainian government has been bombing civilians since 2014. Not the ones in Crimea though (those civilians were protected by Russia), but they did cut off the water supply to them*. Why aren't you supportive of the Russians not letting the American-backed Ukrainians bomb civilians? Russia failed in their diplomatic attempts, just like we did. They supplied arms and equipment, just like we are. Then when those were unsuccessful, they took it to the next level and invaded.

The difference between the Russian aid to the people in the Donbass vs the US support for the illegal coup government in Kiev is:

1. The people in the Donbass are actually Russians. The US gov't has no business here other than funny business "human trafficking and money
laundering to US politicians and bio weapons manufacturing.
2. The US "aid" is designed to prolong the killing of Russians and Ukrainians, not protect life. The idea that it's protecting life is laughable.
3. The US attempted no diplomacy and gave zero consideration to Russian security concerns or the people in the Donbass.
4. The idea of Ukraine joining NATO is something the Russians cannot, under any circumstance allow
a. The so-called country of Ukraine (a hodgepodge of Russia, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Russia, and some area in the middle you could call
Ukraine, actually runs EAST of Moscow into open steppe. Russia can't allow NATO tanks and mech divisions sitting their or fwd artillery or
missile batteries.
b. The USSR lost 28M in WW2, most being Russian. The Axis invaded straight through Ukraine, with soldiers from Germany, Italy, Romania,
Austria, Hungary, Croatia, Bulgaria. It should be obvious to anyone with a casual interest in history why they can't have an enemy military
alliance right on this border. The entire world benefits from a neutral Ukraine.

Americans supporting continued war are supporting the suffering of tens of millions of Ukrainians, women, children etc. They are supporting misery and death there and suffering in Europe from impoverishment and soaring energy prices. One of the posters actually hit the nail on the head when they said the goal is to "bleed" Russia or something. I'm not sure why that's a goal through. It's like they still believe the Russia election hoax from the democrats in 2016 or something.
My simple rebuttal...then withdraw from Ukraine. War over. There's not a single western country on the planet who would support Ukraine militarily the day after that happened.

And, do we count when Russia rolled into Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics after WW1...of course not. That spoils the narrative. Serious hat tip to
Poland who was able to stop Russia moving up to the German border. And on that WW2 narrative, thank FDR and to a much lesser degree Churchill for that one. Pretty sure it was Russia and Germany who divided up Poland and the Baltics in 1939. Also, can you explain the Russian attack against Finland. Popcorn ready, go.

We can run these historicals all day long and I'll be happy to run them with you as far back as you want to.

The fact is, you invade a country for no reason other than you want to there's a price to be paid and you're going to get international pushback.

I'm completely cool if someone wants to get cynical about US actions in Iraq 1/2 and Afghanistan, but at least the US followed the "UN process" UNR 1441, 1378, 678. Please cite the UNR number for Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Lastly, did or did not Russia sign the agreement on Ukraine's status post Cold War?
SilentMajority
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:58 am

Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:34 am
Also, can you explain the Russian attack against Finland. Popcorn ready, go.
This is a major diversion from the topic at hand but we can make it quick.

Maybe you haven't studied this little known sidebar in early WW2, but I suggest it for you and anyone so inclined as it's very interesting. Impossible to do it justice here but at a 50,000 ft level:

In 1938 or thereabouts the Soviet union tried to negotiate an exchange of territory whereby they would gain Finnish land north of Leningrad (to secure it's supply routes in case of a German siege which eventually occurred and starved millions of Russians in the city to death). In exchange the Soviets would give up twice as much land in Karelia to Finland.

After a year of negotiations, the Finns wouldn't accept the Russian proposal/demand and the Russians invaded and won the territory and hundreds of thousands were killed in the process and the Finns didn't get the territory in Karelia in exchange.

That is the 50,000 ft view and there's a lot more to study learn from it, but everyone can choose for themselves what they're interested in.

It's surprising that you'd bring this up, since it seems like a total counter argument to your Ukraine position. Just like Finns, it looks like Ukraine will lose and lose hard, causing the suffering of millions and in the process killing some Russians, but the outcome will almost certainly be Russia gaining it's territorial objectives.

Also of note, the Soviet Union did not continue and occupy Helsinki after beating the finns in 1940 and 1944. They stopped after achieving their stated goals. Not saying it was right or wrong, saying it was reality.
stuper1
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:19 pm

Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:34 am
The fact is, you invade a country for no reason other than you want to there's a price to be paid and you're going to get international pushback.
Russia didn't invade Ukraine simply because it wanted to. Russia invaded Ukraine to protect Russian people who were being attacked there and to prevent NATO from expanding right up to the Russian border. The US would do the same thing in a heartbeat if an enemy alliance were threatening to expand up to the US border.
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