Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post Reply
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Contact:

Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:36 am

Did you know we had a Putin Invades Ukraine thread?

I’ll just leave this here in case any of our friends at Bogleheads are anxious to post their thoughts.
Let 2022 be the year of GOLD
Building dream churches with silver spires /And our rogue children are playing loaded dice
User avatar
Desert
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3565
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:39 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Desert » Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:42 pm

Thanks for starting the thread here, dualstow. What a sad week this has been, for Ukrainians.

In case you want to totally obsess over the developing situation, Sky News Live is doing a great job of covering the story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Auq9mYxFEE
User avatar
Desert
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3565
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:39 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Desert » Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:36 am

Good article on Putin's miscalculation:
But Putin underestimated Ukraine. The country’s troops have resisted hard and have largely held their cities against a Russian attempt at blitzkrieg. Kyiv claims that its experienced, motivated soldiers have killed thousands of Russians, downed enemy planes and destroyed hundreds of armored vehicles and tanks.

Putin also underestimated Zelenskiy.

A former comedian and actor with humble roots, Zelenskiy entered politics in 2019 on an anti-corruption campaign, after playing a history teacher elected as president on an anti-corruption platform in the sitcom “Servant of the People.”

Zelenskiy certainly isn’t perfect, but he’s also not cut from the same fabric of oligarchs who made billions in shady business enterprises. His ascent to the presidency seems to have genuinely been driven by a desire to make things better.

Ukraine now has a leader it can believe in, who is vowing to fight on against a military superpower. He’s a democratically elected president who wasn’t a cynical appointee of some other country, who wasn’t someone seeking the presidency to enrich themselves.

Unlike Afghanistan’s President Ashraf Ghani and his government, Zelenskiy didn’t get on the first plane out of Kyiv, despite the clear danger to his life. When Putin talks about decapitating Ukraine’s government, he is not speaking metaphorically. As Zelenskiy himself said in a video posted to social media, the president is Putin’s No. 1 target, and his family the No. 2.
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine ... lculation/
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4143
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Xan » Sat Feb 26, 2022 9:27 am

Zelenskiy is turning out to be, potentially, a truly inspiring leader. Reminds me of what Queen Elizabeth (the Queen mother) said when Buckingham Palace was bombed in 1940, and was asked whether they'd send the children away.
The children will not leave unless I do. I shall not leave unless their father does, and the King will not leave the country in any circumstances, whatever.

Zelenskiy, when offered to be evacuated by US forces (from the end of Desert's article):
The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride.
User avatar
Desert
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3565
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:39 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Desert » Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:01 am

Yeah, I'm super impressed with Zelenskiy so far.
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:14 am

Desert wrote:
Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:36 am

{article}Putin also underestimated Zelenskiy.

A former comedian and actor with humble roots, Zelenskiy entered politics in 2019 on an anti-corruption campaign, after playing a history teacher elected as president on an anti-corruption platform in the sitcom “Servant of the People.”
I used to watch Servant of the People on netflix, a kind of Ukrainian West Wing ( I think. I never watched West Wing ). I felt like I was missing the real flavor depending on English subtitles and dropped out early on, but I like that it’s out there.

Looking at Putin’s pre-invasion speeches and watching all of this unfold is fascinating. Horrible, but fascinating.
Let 2022 be the year of GOLD
Building dream churches with silver spires /And our rogue children are playing loaded dice
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4143
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Xan » Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:18 am

More:
This night will be hard, very hard, but morning will come.

This night the enemy will be using all available means to break our resistance. This night they will launch an assault.

This night we must persevere. The fate of Ukraine is being decided right now.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7903
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:21 pm

From yesterday's Washington Journal two excellent, highly informative segments:

https://www.c-span.org/video/?518046-3/ ... ty-threats

FEBRUARY 25, 2022 | PART OF WASHINGTON JOURNAL 02/25/2022
Washington Journal
Michael Daniel on Russian Cybersecurity Threats
Cyber Threat Alliance’s Michael Daniel talked about the threat Russia poses when it comes to potential retaliatory cyberattacks.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?518046-4/ ... on-ukraine

FEBRUARY 25, 2022 | PART OF WASHINGTON JOURNAL 02/25/2022
Washington Journal
Brad Bowman on Russian Invasion of Ukraine
Brad Bowman talked about the Russian invasion of Ukraine and potential U.S. and NATO responses.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
Maddy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Maddy » Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:19 am

When a story line is advanced by all of the New World Order political puppets (and right on cue, on the heels of the dissolving CoVid narrative) and when that story line is adopted hook, line and sinker by the mainstream media and the Hollywood elites, you can pretty reliably figure that the truth lies somewhere else.

Here's a very different perspective, put forward by Paul Craig Roberts, former U.S. Treasury Secretary: https://usawatchdog.com/no-shooting-war ... g-roberts/
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:44 am

Uh, Maddy, that is from Feb 22nd.
article
The minute Russian troops moved in, the shelling stopped. It completely stopped, and it won’t start back.”
No idea what year that line is referring to.

In any case, it’s Feb 27 today. Did you notice that Putin has launched a full-scale assault on Ukraine?

Kiev/Kiyv, east, west, north, south. After all this talk about protecting Russian enclaves, breakaway regions, he has decided to try to decapitate the regime and install pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine.

The fact that Ukrainian citizens are taking up arms against him belies Putin’s premise that he is freeing them from “nazis.”

The expansion of NATO, something the U.S. promised wouldn’t happen and then reneged on while Russia was weak- that’s the one thing that doesn’t come up too often in mainstream media. Everything else- well, there’s video, Maddy.

What am I missing here?
Let 2022 be the year of GOLD
Building dream churches with silver spires /And our rogue children are playing loaded dice
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7903
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:52 am

I assume that all things being equal in war that defense has an advantage over offense.

It is always going to take more offense to overtake an entrenched defense.

Is there any kind of accepted range of the ratio of this defense advantage over offense?

I know that Russia's military might on every level dwarf Ukraine's by any measure.

Trying to get an idea of how much that diminishes due to the inherent defense advantage.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1978
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by I Shrugged » Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:56 am

I think it is good to be skeptical of the stories we are seeing. I'd definitely like to get some less biased sources to help see what's really happening. Maybe it's the same as what the state press is giving us. Dunno.

In any event, it appears that armed citizens can make it harder to invade one's country.
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1978
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by I Shrugged » Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:58 am

It seems (again with the skeptic's disclaimers) that Putin has made a big blunder here. If the world really clamps down on Russia, the Russian people will probably dump him.
User avatar
Desert
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3565
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:39 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Desert » Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:05 am

Maddy wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:19 am
When a story line is advanced by all of the New World Order political puppets (and right on cue, on the heels of the dissolving CoVid narrative) and when that story line is adopted hook, line and sinker by the mainstream media and the Hollywood elites, you can pretty reliably figure that the truth lies somewhere else.

Here's a very different perspective, put forward by Paul Craig Roberts, former U.S. Treasury Secretary: https://usawatchdog.com/no-shooting-war ... g-roberts/
When one can deny a worldwide pandemic and an invasion in progress, it's evidence that the total radicalization in the QAnon/Infowars/far-right disinformation ecosystem is complete. It's both sad and evil. Unfortunately, arguing will not help, because the propaganda sources are too plentiful, entertaining, and profitable.
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1978
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by I Shrugged » Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:09 am

Nonetheless Desert, there is a propaganda war going on right now in the mainstream world press. I understand that there is a good guy and a bad guy. But the stories have that war propaganda angle in full swing.
User avatar
Maddy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Maddy » Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:35 am

Desert wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:05 am
When one can deny a worldwide pandemic and an invasion in progress, it's evidence that the total radicalization in the QAnon/Infowars/far-right disinformation ecosystem is complete. It's both sad and evil. Unfortunately, arguing will not help, because the propaganda sources are too plentiful, entertaining, and profitable.
And you have absolutely nothing to say about the merits of his argument? Has it now become sufficient on the PP forum to substitute for actual argument derogatory, culturally-resonant attributions? As if the truth is so sophomorically apparent that you need not even talk about facts?

Why not cut to the chase and simply call me a poopie pants?
Last edited by Maddy on Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4143
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Xan » Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:36 am

Maddy wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:35 am
Desert wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:05 am
When one can deny a worldwide pandemic and an invasion in progress, it's evidence that the total radicalization in the QAnon/Infowars/far-right disinformation ecosystem is complete. It's both sad and evil. Unfortunately, arguing will not help, because the propaganda sources are too plentiful, entertaining, and profitable.
And you have absolutely nothing to say about the merits of his argument? Has it now become sufficient on the PP forum to substitute for actual argument derogatory, culturally-resonant attributions? As if the truth is so sophomorically apparent that you need not even talk about facts?
What is the argument? The only specific thing in the article you linked that I found contradicts the "mainstream" facts is the prediction that there would not be a shooting war in Ukraine. Since it was written, the shooting has started.
User avatar
Maddy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Maddy » Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:41 am

Xan wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:36 am
Maddy wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:35 am
Desert wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:05 am
When one can deny a worldwide pandemic and an invasion in progress, it's evidence that the total radicalization in the QAnon/Infowars/far-right disinformation ecosystem is complete. It's both sad and evil. Unfortunately, arguing will not help, because the propaganda sources are too plentiful, entertaining, and profitable.
And you have absolutely nothing to say about the merits of his argument? Has it now become sufficient on the PP forum to substitute for actual argument derogatory, culturally-resonant attributions? As if the truth is so sophomorically apparent that you need not even talk about facts?
What is the argument? The only specific thing in the article you linked that I found contradicts the "mainstream" facts is the prediction that there would not be a shooting war in Ukraine. Since it was written, the shooting has started.
It was not an article, Xan. It was a podcast. Aside from the title of the podcast, he had very little to say about a "shooting war." What he DID talk about was why this is all occurring and whose wheels are being greased.
User avatar
Desert
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3565
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:39 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Desert » Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:53 am

When I clicked on the link, it brought up an article entitled "No Shooting War in Ukraine – Dr. Paul Craig Roberts."

That together with your post below was enough for me to see that you're interested in slinging "poop" and not interested in serious discussion.
When a story line is advanced by all of the New World Order political puppets (and right on cue, on the heels of the dissolving CoVid narrative) and when that story line is adopted hook, line and sinker by the mainstream media and the Hollywood elites, you can pretty reliably figure that the truth lies somewhere else.
User avatar
Desert
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3565
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:39 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Desert » Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:58 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:09 am
Nonetheless Desert, there is a propaganda war going on right now in the mainstream world press. I understand that there is a good guy and a bad guy. But the stories have that war propaganda angle in full swing.
Right, not every detail is going to be reported correctly, and emotions are running extremely high (understandably).

As you said, there is a good guy and a bad guy. In this war (as in most), the initiator/aggressor/invader is the bad guy.

That said, I'd definitely be interested in reading more accounts from reasonable sources.
glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1101
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by glennds » Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:39 am

I think the article linked might be an abstract of a longer podcast with the author they're quoting. Maddy may be talking about the podcast discussion more than the article abstract.

Either way, if you want some entertainment, scroll through some of the comments. One guy makes an argument for why the US should invade Canada under the Monroe doctrine and topple the existing dictator government in order to pre-empt their eventual alliance with China against the US.
And another points out how much of what is going on was prophesied in the Old Testament, specifically the books of Ezekiel, Daniel and Deuteronomy.
There's some high proof crazy among those commentators
Last edited by glennds on Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7903
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:04 pm

glennds wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:39 am

I think the article linked might be an abstract of a longer podcast with the author they're quoting. Maddy may be talking about the podcast discussion more than the article abstract.

Either way, if you want some entertainment, scroll through some of the comments. One guy makes an argument for why the US should invade Canada under the Monroe doctrine and topple the existing dictator government in order to pre-empt their eventual alliance with China against the US.
And another points out how much of what is going on was predicted in the Old Testament, specifically the books of Ezekiel, Daniel and Deuteronomy.


As a sideline .... how many here were aware that as recently as around World War I times and President Wilson Canada was considered a threat to the United States? I had been completely unaware of them until over the last recent years I read about it a few times in different books.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7903
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:05 pm

Anyone have anything more recent than this?


Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (74.42 KiB) Viewed 4002 times
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Contact:

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:58 pm

Ok, then.
Some more facts:

* Russian citizens are carrying pro-peace anti-war signs with the full knowledge that they'll be arrested and gainful employment will be more difficult in the near future because of it. (Assuming my wet dream doesn't come true and Putin is not deposed). There is less domestic support for the war than in 2014 with the easy takeover of the Crimea.

*The U.S. is giving the Ukraine tens of millions of dollars' worth of aid. Earlier, the Netherlands secured permission from Germany to provide weapons to the Ukrainians. Why do they need Germany's permission? Because they are German-made arms, e.g. Howitzers, and there are strings attached (as there probably should be).

*Israel has offered to help the two countries negotiate as it has good relations with both. Putin said he's ready for the call. (Yes, there are some psychos on the net suggesting that Israel or Soros installed Zelensky, that NATO countries "killed or destroyed" on the instructions of Israel (that's from former Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney). Whatever).

*EU sanctions will be extended to Belarus.

*Wiki says that
Putin ordered Russian nuclear forces on a high alert, a "special regime of combat duty", in response to what he called "aggressive statements" by NATO
Russia is not a superpower without nukes.

Certainly too early to call this, but it does appear that Putin's narrative is falling apart somewhat.
Let 2022 be the year of GOLD
Building dream churches with silver spires /And our rogue children are playing loaded dice
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4143
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Xan » Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:34 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:52 am
I assume that all things being equal in war that defense has an advantage over offense.
It's gone back and forth historically. For example, a castle was largely impregnable, at least without a siege. Advantage: defense. But then the cannon was invented and the walls could just be shot down. Advantage: offense.

At the moment I agree with you, Vinny, that today in terms of putting boots on the ground and occupying territory, the defense has the advantage. But overall we're in an era where offense has the trump card: the nuclear bomb.
Post Reply