Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:33 pm

SilentMajority wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:24 am
3. The US attempted no diplomacy and gave zero consideration to Russian security concerns or the people in the Donbass.
I actually don't disagree with anything you said. But to clarify, I meant that US diplomacy failed to reel in the Ukrainian government from going after the Donbassians (?). I think if Obama, or whoever, would have called the Ukrainians and told them, "hey you fucks, knock it off. Don't you remember how WW I started?" They would have backed off*, wrong-footing a Russian cassus belli to take Ukraine.

*Speculative. As we saw the Azov BN defied their own president. Maybe they respected Poroshenko more. From the Ukrainian POV, ceding the Donbas and Crimea would have been a smart move if they wanted to join the EU and NATO.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:37 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:09 pm
polonium or novichok.
SilentMajority wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:05 pm
Putin is ex kgb so no doubt he's ruthless. Whether this assassination actually was Putin it or if the guy was a foreign agent.....
stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:06 pm
poisoning story on its face is stupid. I'm pretty sure if Putin wanted you dead, you'd be dead, not wandering around Europe claiming that you had been poisoned with some esoteric isotope that sounds like it should be in a spy novel. I could be wrong, but it just sounds like the kind of story somebody will make up to gin up outrage against those heartless Russians ruled by a cruel tyrant. These stories have been used since time immemorial.
I've read enough Bond novels to know that SMERSH's reach is worldwide.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:14 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:33 pm
SilentMajority wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:24 am
3. The US attempted no diplomacy and gave zero consideration to Russian security concerns or the people in the Donbass.
I actually don't disagree with anything you said. But to clarify, I meant that US diplomacy failed to reel in the Ukrainian government from going after the Donbassians (?).
Ok thanks for clarifying. I had read that as you thought US diplomacy failed in preventing the war which confused me. I've been following the events there daily since before the shooting started and the only US "diplomacy" from the Biden regime has been threats, like blowing up Russian pipelines which they've done. Everything has been an attempt to start war, not to prevent it.

I think it will backfire on them (the Biden regime), but maybe not. The Germans are on the streets en masse protesting all this, and looks like the majority of the people world are either indifferent or support Russia. The Americans seem to not have a clue and are totally disconnected from reality due to the endless propaganda.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:39 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:38 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:09 pm

We are butchers, for sure. Although we don’t kill our own people overseas with polonium or novichok.


I would take those "reports" with a grain of salt. Similar to the reports in Syria of Assad gassing his own people, which seem very likely to have been invented propaganda.

As I recall, Obama assassinated a US citizen with a drone strike without any due process, and nobody seemed too concerned about it (except for a few people who can actually think for themselves instead of believing everything that the mass media preaches to them and forces down their throats 24/7).



There were many progressives who were not happy with this.

https://progressive.org/latest/obama-ge ... -citizens/

Obama Gets Slippery on Killing U.S. Citizens
BY MATTHEW ROTHSCHILD MAY 23, 2013 9:47 PM
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm

Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Dieter » Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:12 pm

Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm
Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella
I’ve appreciated your and Kriegs posts on this topic

Slava Ukraine
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:33 pm

Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm
Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella
I'm an American, not Russian, and not even close to being hard right, unless being a non-voting Libertarian is considered hard right these days. Just answer one question: if Russia was pushing a defensive alliance up to our Canadian or Mexican border, would we take it lying down or would we push back? Especially if Russia had promised 33 years ago not to do such a thing, which was what the US did when the Soviet Union broke up in 1989.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Dieter » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:02 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:33 pm
Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm
Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella
I'm an American, not Russian, and not even close to being hard right, unless being a non-voting Libertarian is considered hard right these days. Just answer one question: if Russia was pushing a defensive alliance up to our Canadian or Mexican border, would we take it lying down or would we push back? Especially if Russia had promised 33 years ago not to do such a thing, which was what the US did when the Soviet Union broke up in 1989.
IMO, the Eastern Europeans were / are smart not to trust Russia for their peace and security. There is history there.

No treaty was broken by the west.

As long as Russia has nukes, they aren’t going to be attacked by any NATO or non-NATO country.

War of aggression by Russia, phase not the first
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:18 pm

It works both ways though doesn't it. The Russians have been attacked from their west several times before and had huge numbers of casualties in the process. They have little reason to respect promises from European countries.

So, I guess what you are saying is that the US wouldn't push back if an enemy pushed an alliance up to our borders. We have nukes so nobody is going to dare attack us, right. So we wouldn't need to be concerned about an alliance pushing right up to our borders. I have my doubts that it would play out like that, but who knows maybe you are right. I don't think any of us has all the information we would like to have. We're just trying to make sense of things based on scattered pieces of information that we come across.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:15 am

The situation after the end of the Cold War and break up of the Soviet Union is reminiscent of the time after WW1 when the allies forced a terrible treaty onto Germany. If the allies had been more gracious in their victory and not forced brutal reparations onto Germany, who was by no means the only party at fault for starting WW1, then Hitler probably never would have been able to come to power and WW2 would never have happened.

Similarly, if the US had been more gracious after the end of the Cold War and hadn't pushed a narrative that Russia is to be feared and hadn't pushed NATO up to the doorstep of Russia, then Russian may not have felt the need to attack Ukraine (setting aside for the moment the issue of attacks on Russian parts of Ukraine by the Ukrainian government in recent years). Sure, there was no written treaty saying that NATO couldn't expand to Russia's doorstep, but that doesn't make it wise to push NATO that far, just as it wasn't wise to push Germany so far after WW1, leading to Hitler's rise. Several wise foreign policy experts, people like George Kennan, have been saying this very thing for the past 30 years, but the military-industrial complex won't listen because there is a lot of money to be made by expanding NATO.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:54 am

KYIV, Ukraine—Russia unleashed a fresh barrage of attacks across Ukraine on Wednesday, striking critical infrastructure in the capital, Kyiv’s mayor said, after a missile hit a maternity ward in the country’s south earlier in the day
— WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-str ... 1669196039
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:05 am

Dieter wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:02 pm
IMO, the Eastern Europeans were / are smart not to trust Russia for their peace and security. There is history there.

No treaty was broken by the west.

As long as Russia has nukes, they aren’t going to be attacked by any NATO or non-NATO country.

War of aggression by Russia, phase not the first
I work with a lot of Czechs, Slovaks and some Hungarians/Romanians and they all despise Russia, Putin, and don't trust them one bit. I sympathize with that, as someone that's studied WW2 heavily and am well aware of the rape, pillaging, murder, and subjugation of Eastern/Central Europe including Germany by the Soviets.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you're Bulgarian right? I don't know many Bulgarians, but I like Grigor Dimitrov and own a couple Bulgarian rifles FWIW. The quality of Bulgarian AKs is right up there with the Poles or even better.

Hatred and mistrust of Russia might be very well-founded, and perceiving this as a "war of aggression" might also be understandable. To discount the Russian perspective though is what has caused the situation. Overthrowing the government in Kiev, supporting attacks on Russian populations in the East of what was called "Ukraine", and threatening to put NATO military bases, fwd artillery batteries, tactical nukes etc. on the Eastern edge of Ukraine and pointed at the heart of Russia was a bridge too far for them.

The current Russian government will never permit this under any circumstances and the population is almost certainly going to back them up big time. They will look at it as a matter of life and death. That's their perspective and it's not been respected. They asked repeatedly for declarations of Ukraine neutrality and for NATO to reject the idea of Ukraine membership, and this was all refused. I think Russia multiple times has petitioned for NATO membership itself.

From where I stand the West has been the aggressor completely. We disagree, that's fine. Adults should be able to disagree without going into name-calling. Unfortunately the TV propaganda has small vocal minority in America calling anyone who disagrees with the government narrative a Russian bot or Putin-lover. It's like a Pavlovian response so the people who believe what the TV tells them never have to explain why they believe it, because it falls apart so quickly. Some people here believe Russia launched this operation "just because they wanted to".

Regardless, most people want peace, trade, happiness, safety and security. Musk suggested a path forward through diplomacy and democracy and the Kiev regime called him a Putin lover or something or said "F U". They have shot down every attempt at peaceful resolution and now shot missiles into Poland (Zelinsky is still calling them Russian missiles I think, maybe he didn't get the memo). They are posting videos on Twitter of torturing and executing surrendered Russian soldiers. They post images of torture of Russian sympathizers in recaptured towns. I think this morning they are raiding and humiliating the Orthodox church in Kiev and calling them Russian Sympathizers. This is counter productive towards peace.

The only hope for peace is probably what KBG suggested: The US removes all support for the Kiev government, then all the other Euro countries will follow quickly and Zelinsky will accept a peace agreement or risk losing Kiev.
Last edited by SilentMajority on Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:08 am

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:33 pm

Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm

Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella


I'm an American, not Russian, and not even close to being hard right, unless being a non-voting Libertarian is considered hard right these days. Just answer one question: if Russia was pushing a defensive alliance up to our Canadian or Mexican border, would we take it lying down or would we push back? Especially if Russia had promised 33 years ago not to do such a thing, which was what the US did when the Soviet Union broke up in 1989.


You have your answer in the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, 40 years ago. Because Russia installed missiles in Cuba, we were ready to go to thermonuclear war, invade Cuba, and other less drastic measures.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:12 am

Dieter wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:02 pm
As long as Russia has nukes, they aren’t going to be attacked by any NATO or non-NATO country.
It's about first-strike capability, who can move faster, tactical nukes etc. There's a reason the US couldn't tolerate Soviet nukes in Cuba, even though we obliterate Russia afterwards.

Also, it's possible a war could only involve conventional forces and neither side pull the trigger on nukes to avoid destroying the planet. If this were the case, NATO would have armored divisions 300 km from the Volga and able to cut off the Caucus from the heart of Russia. Well they aren't going to permit that.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:12 am

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:15 am

The situation after the end of the Cold War and break up of the Soviet Union is reminiscent of the time after WW1 when the allies forced a terrible treaty onto Germany. If the allies had been more gracious in their victory and not forced brutal reparations onto Germany, who was by no means the only party at fault for starting WW1, then Hitler probably never would have been able to come to power and WW2 would never have happened.

Similarly, if the US had been more gracious after the end of the Cold War and hadn't pushed a narrative that Russia is to be feared and hadn't pushed NATO up to the doorstep of Russia, then Russian may not have felt the need to attack Ukraine (setting aside for the moment the issue of attacks on Russian parts of Ukraine by the Ukrainian government in recent years). Sure, there was no written treaty saying that NATO couldn't expand to Russia's doorstep, but that doesn't make it wise to push NATO that far, just as it wasn't wise to push Germany so far after WW1, leading to Hitler's rise. Several wise foreign policy experts, people like George Kennan, have been saying this very thing for the past 30 years, but the military-industrial complex won't listen because there is a lot of money to be made by expanding NATO.


1) I know that the popular opinion is that the treaty from World War I led to Hitler and World War II. But I've recently read from a few sources that this now falls into myth territory.

2) How should the United States been more gracious after the end of the Cold War? What was pushed was that we would now have no more wars and that we be reaping the benefits of peace dividends.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:12 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:08 am
stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:33 pm
Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm
Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella
I'm an American, not Russian, and not even close to being hard right, unless being a non-voting Libertarian is considered hard right these days. Just answer one question: if Russia was pushing a defensive alliance up to our Canadian or Mexican border, would we take it lying down or would we push back? Especially if Russia had promised 33 years ago not to do such a thing, which was what the US did when the Soviet Union broke up in 1989.
You have your answer in the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, 40 years ago. Because Russia installed missiles in Cuba, we were ready to go to thermonuclear war, invade Cuba, and other less drastic measures.
Thanks V, I was literally just writing that.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:14 am

SilentMajority wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:12 am

Dieter wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:02 pm

As long as Russia has nukes, they aren’t going to be attacked by any NATO or non-NATO country.


It's about first-strike capability, who can move faster, tactical nukes etc. There's a reason the US couldn't tolerate Soviet nukes in Cuba, even though we obliterate Russia afterwards.

Also, it's possible a war could only involve conventional forces and neither side pull the trigger on nukes to avoid destroying the planet. If this were the case, NATO would have armored divisions 300 km from the Volga and able to cut off the Caucus from the heart of Russia. Well they aren't going to permit that.


Or, it could have been typical American hubris wherein we could do certain things in certain parts of the world but other countries were not allowed to do similarly to us.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:18 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:54 am
KYIV, Ukraine—Russia unleashed a fresh barrage of attacks across Ukraine on Wednesday, striking critical infrastructure in the capital, Kyiv’s mayor said, after a missile hit a maternity ward in the country’s south earlier in the day
— WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-str ... 1669196039
A terrible tragedy is unfolding. If peace can't be achieved very very soon, the winter is going to be horrible for Ukraine and miserable for lots of Europe. The Ukrainian demands of Russian surrendering all the contested territory with Russian populations will never be acceptable, so I'm afraid it will continue and get worse until the West pulls the rug out from under the Kiev regime.

Of course any US politician or prominent figure that suggests this is denounced as a Russian-bot, Putin-lover on the spot by the media and Ukraine flag people, and threated by the US government with investigations and harassment.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:51 am

Thanks for your posts, Silent Majority. I agree with everything you said, including about liking Grigor Dimitrov. He's one of the most likable on the ATP and maybe one of the most talented. Sometimes I think he's too nice to maximize his talent. I got to see him play live in San Diego last year. His talent is off the charts. Seeing what he could do on return of serve compared to most other players was like watching a man among boys. Sometimes I think it's hard to be a nice person and be a champion at a sport like tennis.

I also like what you said that we ought to be able to disagree on these things without calling each other names like Russia bot or Putin lover. I've never been to Russia and have no Russian heritage. I simply figure they are human beings like everybody else, motivated by pretty much the same things, and probably just like everyone else most of them are fairly decent people.

I'm a bit puzzled by several people pointing out the Cuban missile crisis. Of course, that's the answer to my question. So, if it was ok for the US to do that over Cuba, then why isn't it ok for Russia to do this over Ukraine? The answer of course is that it's not ok actually to invade another country, but it wouldn't have happened if NATO hadn't try to push up to Russia's border. So the NATO push was a very unwise idea and shouldn't have happened, just like Germany shouldn't have been pushed in a corner after WW1 leading to the rise of Hitler. This is what you call realism versus idealism.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:05 am

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:51 am
Thanks for your posts, Silent Majority. I agree with everything you said, including about liking Grigor Dimitrov. He's one of the most likable on the ATP and maybe one of the most talented. Sometimes I think he's too nice to maximize his talent. I got to see him play live in San Diego last year.
I think he had a fling with Serena and then dumped her for Sharapova or something. I can't remember where I heard it but I heard that Serena referenced him in her book and called him "Blackheart". So when he's up to play I tell my wife Blackheart is playing. She's not a tennis player but enjoys the drama, especially if the players have beef.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:06 am

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:51 am

Thanks for your posts, Silent Majority. I agree with everything you said, including about liking Grigor Dimitrov. He's one of the most likable on the ATP and maybe one of the most talented. Sometimes I think he's too nice to maximize his talent. I got to see him play live in San Diego last year. His talent is off the charts. Seeing what he could do on return of serve compared to most other players was like watching a man among boys. Sometimes I think it's hard to be a nice person and be a champion at a sport like tennis.

I also like what you said that we ought to be able to disagree on these things without calling each other names like Russia bot or Putin lover. I've never been to Russia and have no Russian heritage. I simply figure they are human beings like everybody else, motivated by pretty much the same things, and probably just like everyone else most of them are fairly decent people.

I'm a bit puzzled by several people pointing out the Cuban missile crisis. Of course, that's the answer to my question. So, if it was ok for the US to do that over Cuba, then why isn't it ok for Russia to do this over Ukraine? The answer of course is that it's not ok actually to invade another country, but it wouldn't have happened if NATO hadn't try to push up to Russia's border. So the NATO push was a very unwise idea and shouldn't have happened, just like Germany shouldn't have been pushed in a corner after WW1 leading to the rise of Hitler. This is what you call realism versus idealism.


The difference with the Cuban Missile Crisis and what Russia has done is that while Kennedy had a ton of advisers (including almost all the military) who wanted to initial military action against Cuba .... Kennedy wisely and successfully resolved it via the diplomatic route. Putin chose military.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:15 am

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:33 pm
Kbg wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:44 pm
Not going to do Covid 2 on this thread. Appreciate Krieg’s writing. The S men are factually incorrect, lying and/or totally deluded.

All we’re doing here now is providing a platform for Russian or hard right American propaganda. I’m out.

#NAFOfella
I'm an American, not Russian, and not even close to being hard right, unless being a non-voting Libertarian is considered hard right these days. Just answer one question: if Russia was pushing a defensive alliance up to our Canadian or Mexican border, would we take it lying down or would we push back? Especially if Russia had promised 33 years ago not to do such a thing, which was what the US did when the Soviet Union broke up in 1989.
My really last post on this thread. :D ::)

This a standard Russian propaganda line and has been around since Putin began his "Journey to Restore Russian Greatness."

Question 1: Why did every country up to Russia's border want to be in NATO? Answer: Because they have a historically imperialist power on their borders that has offensively attacked them going back three centuries with the latest being in current memory. Not to mention what Russians did to their people and culture during 40+ years of absolute tyranny. If you're a libertarian...I'm calling you out here, period. You do not act intelligently or faithfully on your core beliefs.

And now I'd like to pose a question to the thread's Russian propaganda peddlers which I expect an answer to.

Why has Canada and Mexico not sought "defensive" treaties against the US? In the 1700 and early 1800s we attacked both of them and peeled off a good chunk of Mexico in fact. Other than typical squabbles, after the Canadian US border was settled it has been defenseless on both sides for OVER 100 YEARS. Anyone who knows some US/Mexican history knows it's a pretty ugly one from a US actions perspective. And yet, the US/Mexican border is largely the same as the Canadian one.

Finally, did Russia keep it's agreement? Also, is Ukraine and Belorussia in Ukraine?

But thanks for the hypothetical...Lenin and Trotsky would be proud.

Personally, for most things of western and eastern orientation, I don't think much matters prior to WW2. Post WW2 set up the modern world as we know it...and I'll match the US and NATOs record against the Russian/Warsaw Pact one any day.

One of the most trying times, philosophically and morally, which yielded some very serious internal policy and operational debates in the US military and intelligence establishments was how in the world do you deal with and fight an enemy that is utterly without morality?

I like to think God granted the U.S. a gift in George Frost Kennan who suggested a way that did not involve WWW3...hold the line, skirmish when forced to and eventually the system will implode on itself. Here's to hoping Ukraine wins, Russia loses and the remnants of communist Russia are finally expunged from the world we live in. While I'm hardcore anti-Russian government as one could probably get, I do hope the Russian people will one day get the government they've wanted for 100+ years.

I was a very young pup in the biz during the collapse of the FSU and I know personally what was felt and thought at the time.

Yep, some high fiving self-congratulations was happening. We had won the Cold War.

There was nothing but hope that Russia would join the world community of nations and it really looked like it would be joining the family of democratic nations there for a bit. But unfortunately, like our post-WW2 predecessors, we learned another communist/dictator had taken over the place. Or was it Michael Corleone, hard to tell.
Last edited by Kbg on Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:29 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:15 am
Question 1: Why did every country up to Russia's border want to be in NATO? Answer: Because they have a historically imperialist power on their borders that has offensively attacked them going back three centuries with the latest being in current memory. Not to mention what Russians did to their people and culture during 40+ years of absolute tyranny. If you're a libertarian...I'm calling you out here, period. You do not act intelligently or faithfully on your core beliefs.

And now I'd like to pose a question to the thread's Russian propaganda peddlers which I expect an answer to.

Why has Canada and Mexico not sought "defensive" treaties against the US? In the 1700 and early 1800s we attacked both of them and peeled off a good chunk of Mexico in fact. Other than typical squabbles, after the Canadian US border was settled it has been defenseless on both sides for OVER 100 YEARS. Anyone who knows some US/Mexican history knows it's a pretty ugly one from a US actions perspective. And yet, the US/Mexican border is largely the same as the Canadian one.

Personally, for most things of western and eastern orientation, I don't think much matters prior to WW2. Post WW2 set up the modern world as we know it...and I'll match the US and NATOs record against the Russian/Warsaw Pact one any day.

One of the most trying times, philosophically and morally, which yielded some very serious internal policy and operational debates in the US military and intelligence establishments was how in the world do you deal with and fight an enemy that is utterly without morality?

I like to think God granted the U.S. a gift in George Frost Kennan who suggested a way that did not involve WWW3...hold the line, skirmish when forced to and eventually the system will implode on itself. Here's to hoping Ukraine wins, Russia loses and the remnants of communist Russia are finally expunged from the world we live in. While I'm hardcore anti-Russian government as one could probably get, I do hope the Russian people will one day get the government they've wanted for 100+ years.
I'm theoretically a libertarian, although I haven't voted in 38 years, but that doesn't mean I expect Russia to be governed by libertarians. I mean it would be nice, but very unlikely to happen. I can understand every country up to Russia's border wanting to be in NATO. If I was them, I might want to be in NATO also. That doesn't mean that the US should have allowed them to join NATO. That is called unwise provocation. Your man George Kennan said so many times and he was completely against it after the Cold War ended. He said that if NATO expanded it would lead to problems with Russia, and he has been shown to be a prophet.
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dualstow
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:39 am

SilentMajority wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:18 am
A terrible tragedy is unfolding. If peace can't be achieved very very soon, the winter is going to be horrible for Ukraine and miserable for lots of Europe. The Ukrainian demands of Russian surrendering all the contested territory with Russian populations will never be acceptable, so I'm afraid it will continue and get worse until the West pulls the rug out from under the Kiev regime.

Of course any US politician or prominent figure that suggests this is denounced as a Russian-bot, Putin-lover on the spot by the media and Ukraine flag people, and threated by the US government with investigations and harassment.
Already very cold there, and likely to get worse, yep. On that we agree.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:21 am

And on the other other hand, given the neocon track record on conducting or supporting wars to remove bad guys from power and see them replaced with lovely pro-western leaders, why will this be any different?

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