Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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ppnewbie wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:35 am I believe we have to give a Putin and the Russians a way out, if Putin wants a way out.

I think Zelensky offered to promise not to join NATO, but that wasn’t good enough. The Ukrainians of course refused to hand over the port city of Mariupol. I’m not sure what reasonable offer could be made that would allow Putin to retreat with his dignity intact. He has screwed himself and the longer he is alive and in power, the greater the risk is that he will do some real damage. Maybe chemical weapons, or maybe his usual M.O. of leveling cities and causing major civilian casualties. Still, I think the Russian army needs the stick, not a carrot.

Appeasement does not work with strongmen. And maybe there’s a difference between appeasement and a way out, but I doubt Putin would accept anything but an offer that is well into appeasement territory.

Best case scenario, though of course it’s just wishful thinking: a military coup in Russia.

The world is starting to move on without us. Oil starting to be traded in non dollars, China / Russia trading in Yuan.
Is that really the world, though? At this point, Russia doesn’t have too many options in which to trade. We’re even making it difficult for them to use gold now.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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dualstow wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:05 pm

Appeasement does not work with strongmen. And maybe there’s a difference between appeasement and a way out, but I doubt Putin would accept anything but an offer that is well into appeasement territory.

Even if appeasement ended the current conflict, there is little evidence in history that you can appease a strongman dictator into abandoning all ambitions and giving up the life of mischief for good.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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yep :-)

Well, as long as I’m creating another post...
from this morning:
Ukraine claims to have destroyed a key Russian supply ship off Berdyansk.

More war talk at PP is Totally Obsolete!! (MediumTex)

Added: @ppnewbie - how about if we gave the next guy at Russia's helm a way out. That would make more sense to me. I’m not suggesting someone from the West should assassinate Putin. That might just result in a replacement. However, if the Russian military got rid of him or the Russian people got rid of him, things would be better for Russia, the Ukraine and for the West. For a little while, maybe?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Disclaimer: These are my strongly held opinions. I respect everyone's opinions in this thread!

Many people around the world understand the US are cold blooded killers. I have an El Salvadoran friend who is deaf in one hear because of explosives going off near her and she used to have to hide her brother because the US backed forces would routinely round up boys to serve in their army.

I know a guy who's father instigated a coup because the democratically elected president was not good for his profit. The coup resulted in a brutal dictatorship.

Putin is a killer as well. The killers and their capo's need to come to the table because the stakes are too high. There is a mass starvation event that could likely occur if wheat is not planted. One of the killers no longer does anything productive and needs the other killers let him/her/them ;) be king for a while longer.

One of killers can see to it that Europeans don't freeze to death. One of the killers can allow the US to buy stuff they need like microwaves and rare earth minerals. Another killer can continue to price oil in dollars.

It just feels too simplistic to say Russia bad. I guess you can boil my thesis down to this. This war has enormous long term consequences, first order, second order, third order......Nth order effects. And we should establish a peace quickly.

From what I am hearing from the Western leaders, it seems like they may be oblivious to these consequences. I am hoping it's all just negotiating bluster and tactics and they are closer to a deal than we know.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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dualstow wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:36 pm I understand you’re not swallowing the noble Ukraine narrative wholesale. And I’m not putting a blue and yellow flag in my window to signal how righteous I am — I see it in my neighborhood and roll my eyes. But, I am genuinely curious as to what you think is going on. Beyond the nobody-knows-for-sure, you must be leaning in one direction. A little bit?
Not really. I tend to avoid leaning until I know what's really going on. And the problem in this case is that, as the old saying goes, truth is the first casualty of war.

My take on the situation is pretty similar to that of MediumTex, who said this the other day in another thread: "Knowing what I know about both Russia and Ukraine, I am hesitant to believe much of anything that either one says."

Some of the recent posts here have mentioned the geopolitics of this conflict, for example the possible beginning of the end of the petrodollar. I'm currently reading Peter Zeihan's book The Accidental Superpower (recommended to me by another forum member), in which one of his theses is that over time, the world will break apart from an integrated global economy protected by one global superpower (the US) into more isolated regional blocs protected by regional powers. I'm not that far into the book yet, but it sounds like what's happening right now between Russia and the West might be roughly in line with Zeihan's thesis.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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I respect your opinion, too.
ppnewbie wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:28 pm ..
It just feels too simplistic to say Russia bad.

Naturally. I think it would also be simplistic, though, to try to tie those who recognize Russia as the invading force and the instigator of the war with the 'orange man bad' people imagined in...let's say boglerdude's shitposts.
I guess you can boil my thesis down to this. This war has enormous long term consequences, first order, second order, third order......Nth order effects. And we should establish a peace quickly.
Sounds good. How?
As mentioned above, I don't think appeasement would work. Even if it did, that would mean what? That Putin will nuke us two years later instead of tomorrow? I don't mean that in a flippant way. I mean -- and I'm obviously not the first to say this -- He's just going to rebuild his military and do it right next time, not making any of the mistakes he made this time.

That leaves two other options: continuing to assist the Ukrainians without directly attacking Russians, or directly attacking Russians. The latter seems like a bad idea for all kinds of reasons. My vote is for the middle option: help the Ukrainians fight their own battle.
Do the Ukrainians debate 'Russia bad'? I would think they're busy trying to shoot Russians and dodge Russian bullets.

The Drive article posted by Vinny recently also addresses the idea of a postwar occupation by Russia, which also sounds like a nightmare for all. Many more deaths, and much more suffering. Including the death of many a Russian soldier who would rather be home. The quickest way to get there is for the Ukrainians to capitulate and/or for NATO to appease Putin. It just really looks like the best way to avoid that hellish scenario is a decisive victory over the Russians. Not because USA#1 Go Team NATO Russia bad. No, for the reasons outlined above.

Russia turning on Putin would be even better, but that's out of our hands.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Tortoise wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:11 pm Peter Zeihan's book The Accidental Superpower

Sounds like an extremely interesting book.
I tend to avoid leaning until I know what's really going on.
And we have that luxury. Lucky us. I Read about it and comment on it because I find it fascinating, while the players of course have to assess as best they can and act on what they believe to be true. Ukrainian civilians, world leaders, military leaders.
And the problem in this case is that, as the old saying goes, truth is the first casualty of war.

My take on the situation is pretty similar to that of MediumTex, who said this the other day in another thread: "Knowing what I know about both Russia and Ukraine, I am hesitant to believe much of anything that either one says."
What if we were to take 'says' out of the equation, Zelensky's virtual world tour included? There are satellites, there are normal people posting images and videos. Surely not everyone out there is a government agent posting lies on social media?

Could the situation turn out to be drastically different from what it currently looks like? Sure, I try to keep an open mind. But there are limits. If you go to Japan, you can still find a museum indicating that the U.S. tricked Japan into bombing Pearl Harbor. Doesn't quite explain who tricked them into committing atrocities in and over China before that, but ok. (I don't want to start another off-topic fork here, I'm just saying) So Putin had some really good reason to launch an invasion of Ukraine. A reason that he could not be bothered to tell the world about, choosing instead to say, Hey, we're not going to invade. Everybody chill, and pay no attention to our troops massing on Ukraine's border.

He had some reason. Not to secure the Russian-speaking enclaves apparently, because he launched a full-scale invasion, including Kyiv. Or Kiyv. However the fuck the locals spell Kiev.

And now, civilians are getting killed -- I believe. There are a lot of journalists there from an array of countries. I have to invoke Occam's Razor a second time and ask which is more likely: that there's a global conspiracy (not just a Ukrainian one) to make the Russians look bad? Or that the Russians have killed a bunch of civilians? I’m not even saying they deliberately target civilians. Just that they killed a bunch and are still at it.

Ok, things are not always what they seem / fog of war . But this is what it looks like. And it looks like Putin really thought this was going to be an easy task. Now that he sees it's not, he's not the kind of person to turn tail. He'd rather throw more lives at this thing. So here things stand.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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One analysis:
The likelihood of a negotiated peace settlement is very unlikely and getting less so each day
- Dmitri Alperovitch
https://twitter.com/spectator/status/15 ... 3459231753
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Interesting points. The point that really made me think is why didn’t Putin just say he is invading Ukraine in order to assure NATO is unable to expand its military presence to Russias front door.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Are you being facetious? O0
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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dualstow wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:23 am Are you being facetious? O0
Nope. Read the thread quickly and thought the was one of the points.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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It was. Just confirming.
My answer to that would be, did the Russians say, Look we’ve got these troops massed on the border for a reason. We’d really like to avoid a conflict,
So Putin had some really good reason to launch an invasion of Ukraine. A reason that he could not be bothered to tell the world about,
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Speaking of war criminals, Madeleine Albright just died. Of course our flags are at half staff.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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This is how Robert Wright's latest Nonzero newsletter begins:

Earthling: The War Crimes Question

Is the Pentagon waging information war against the State Department? That’s one interpretation of the fact that this week, as Secretary of State Antony Blinken was asserting that Russians have committed war crimes in Ukraine, anonymous Pentagon sources were emphasizing how few of the bombs, missiles, and artillery shells delivered by Russia have hit civilians.

A Newsweek piece by veteran national security journalist William Arkin quotes an anonymous senior analyst at the Pentagon’s Defense Intelligence Agency saying:

The heart of Kyiv has barely been touched. And almost all of the long-range strikes have been aimed at military targets… I know it's hard to swallow that the carnage and destruction could be much worse than it is. But that's what the facts show. This suggests to me, at least, that Putin is not intentionally attacking civilians, that perhaps he is mindful that he needs to limit damage in order to leave an out for negotiations.
https://nonzero.substack.com/p/earthlin ... s-question

That would also dovetail with the absence of major aerial bombing.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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JoeBiden wrote: `This man cannot remain in power’
ok then
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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I wanted to write this post for a long time. The first couple weeks after the war started had been hard as I tried to consume tons of information from all kinds of sources and figure out for myself what was going on. It came to the point that my wife insisted that I stop and take a break from the news. As Vil and others here said, it's hard to understand what is legit and what is fake as on top of the military conflict there is information war which Russia certainly is losing to Ukraine as there are tons of fake reports. This forum has been such a blessing for me that I feel like I can't just sit silently and passively read what my fellow forum residents post while knowing that due to my background and family circumstances my thoughts might be quite helpful for someone reading this forum. And when Vil shared his story I knew I have to chip in.

I was born into a Russian family in one of the southern republics of USSR. After graduating from high school I moved to Russia to attend college, and there I met this gorgeous Ukrainian girl who later became my wife. We lived in Russia through all the craziness of the late 80s and 90s. We've seen it all with our own eyes - the Gorbachev's reforms, the breakup of the Eastern Bloc, the 1991 coup that led to collapse of USSR, the painful and poorly planned transition to the market economy, the Russian Treasury bonds bubble of 1998, the hopes for better future ("the West will help us!") as the Cold War ended and Russia's relations with US and Western Europe somewhat improved.

At the dawn of the 21st century, shortly before Putin came to power, we immigrated to US. Both my wife and I have relatives in Russia and Ukraine, and my wife's home town in Eastern Ukraine is actually very close to the area held by the separatists. After the 2014 coup happened in Kiev and the conflict broke on the East her town suffered from the fight between the Ukrainian army and the separatists, we helped her family financially to fix the roof that was damaged by shelling. After this invasion started on 2/24 we've been in daily contact with my wife's folks in Ukraine, some of them moved to rural areas away from the town, while others preferred to stay in town. Thank God everyone is safe and healthy so far.

Having lived a good chunk of my life in socialism and then developing economy I finally got a chance to live in a diverse democratic society and understand how and why the true democracy works and what it means to have freedom in all aspects of your life (of course I'm not oblivious to all the negative trends and social and economic problems we face here in US). After 20+ years of living in US my views certainly evolved and I think I can understand the global trends as well as specific developments, like this war, better and with less bias than if I were still in Russia. While I am Russian ethnically, I think of myself more as Russian American.

Now that I bored you enough with my long intro I'll get back to the topic of this thread. I have many friends and relatives in both Russia and Ukraine, so I can get information "from the field" so to speak and use it in addition to the input gathered from the news and other sources to do my own analysis of what's happening. I didn't believe Putin would invade until that day (February 23) when he recognized the two regions as independent republics and gave a long speech on Russian TV. I watched the whole thing and it gave me chills as it dawned on me what the next step could be. Now, all the reasons he gave ARE real issues: the 8-year conflict on the East, the rise of Neo-Nazism, poorly controlled nationalist militia groups trained by Western instructors, the war on Russian language and general anti-Russian policies, etc. Nazism is a very sensitive topic for any Russian. USSR lost 20 mln people in WWII and almost every family was affected. My grandfather died fighting Nazis in one of the Baltic countries in 1944. However, if these were the only reasons then I don't think the war is a legitimate answer. The conflict on the East is technically a civil war and should be resolved by Ukrainians themselves (however in reality I think it's a proxy war between 3d parties and that could be one of the reasons Putin acted. I provided links to some resources at the end of the post, including the Oliver Stone's film "Ukraine on Fire"). The rest is mostly social and governance issues that, again, should be tackled by Ukrainians internally. As a neighbor, Russia could help with these issues through humanitarian and diplomatic channels. Things like offering immigration and education opportunities, supporting opposition leaders in the government and community to facilitate favorable laws (fact: president Yanukovich made Russian language the 2nd official language, but the junta that came to power in 2014 annulled that law), offer favorable trade conditions and so forth. This is a long process and the success is not guaranteed. I don't know how a war would be a solution here - to the contrary, this war alienated two friendly nations turning brothers into enemies and killing thousands of people on both sides.

But what if this war is a result of something other than the issues above? Could it be that there is another reason that we don't hear about from the world leaders when they talk on TV? I thought about this for a long time and while my insights could be wrong (like everybody else's) and I hardly know the exact reason, I think at least I know the context in which this topic can be thought about - geopolitics. It seems to me that this war is not about Ukraine, but rather this is a global conflict between the superpowers. I don't want to go too deep into this topic, but over the last 8 years Ukraine has amassed lots of weapons from NATO countries, the NATO instructors trained the Ukrainian military (including nationalist battalions) and the conflict in the Donetsk/Lugansk area devastated cities and led to massive civilians casualties.

Now, regarding the invasion start date - why did it start on 2/24? The Russians recently published a top secret military order dated January '22 signed by the commander of the National Guard of Ukraine, Colonel-General Balan. It describes in detail the plan for preparing storm groups for offensive operations in the zone of the "operation of the combined forces" in the Donbass. It turned out that a large-scale offensive by the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the nationalist battalions was planned for March. The Russians claim that the units that were preparing for this offensive were trained by American and British instructors under the "NATO Standard" programs in Lviv (a major city in the Western Ukraine). The Russians consider the published documents a proof that official Kyiv lied when it promised the whole world to resolve the issue of Donbass exclusively “by political and diplomatic means.” As a result, the Russians launched a preemptive strike, breaking the plans of the Ukrainian authorities. I read the document and it looks legit with all the signatures and seals/stamps, contains pretty detailed instructions to the specific military units, and is written in a familiar bureaucratic lingo that hasn't changed much since the Soviet era. Now, being a techie guy I understand that in this day and age you can forge any document, but based on my analysis the document looks like a real thing and so far I haven't seen any rebuttal from Ukrainian sources.

A couple of other points:
- The NATO-Ukraine collaboration plans included deployment of ground-based missile systems in Ukraine, including nuclear missiles capable of destroying targets within a radius of 5.500 km. These systems would be able to hit objects throughout the European part of Russia, as well as beyond the Urals. The flight time to Moscow for Tomahawk cruise missiles is less than 35 minutes, for ballistic missiles from the Kharkov region - 7-8 minutes, and for hypersonic strike weapons - 4-5 minutes.
- Zelensky recently talked about revising the Budapest Memorandum, the agreement that confirmed Ukraine's status of a non-nuclear power. By breaking that memorandum Ukraine could have tried to create a so-called "dirty bomb". According to the prominent nuclear physicist Alexander Borovoy, who helped with the post-explosion clean-up at Chernobyl, Ukraine is capable of creating such a bomb as they still own Soviet nuclear technology.

I don't want to turn this post to a small poem and frankly at this point I feel exhausted. To conclude this post I'll give you some resources that might be useful for those who want to better understand the history of Ukraine and the global events we're living through.

To my fellow Slavic brother Vil (if I may call you that) - thank you so much for posting here. I haven't been in Bulgaria, but I remember the wonderful taste of the brandy Slanchev Bryag (Слънчев Бряг). It was hugely popular in Russia (before the arrival of Hennessy and Martell). 8)

1. Interview with Patrick Lancaster, Navy veteran and independent reporter who lives in Ukraine. He also has a channel on YouTube where he posts his talks with the locals at various locations with English subtitles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RVn_bslSKQ

2. Ukraine on Fire - a documentary by Oliver Stone. It was filmed in 2016 and digs deep into history of Ukraine before explaining the 2014 events. CAUTION: the video includes graphic content (war footage). I included the 2nd link in case YouTube blocks the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKcmNGvaDUs
https://www.redvoicemedia.com/video/202 ... ntary-2016

3. John Mearsheimer is a professor in Political Science at the University of Chicago. This 2015 video got 20+ mln views on YouTube and is still relevant. He shares his view of the causes of the present Ukraine crisis, the best way to end it, and its consequences for all of the main actors. The talk goes for ~45 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

4. Vladimir Pozner is a prominent Russian journalist. He was born in France to a Russian Jewish father and French mother, grew up in the US, then he spent some time in the East Berlin and eventually ended up in USSR. In the 80s he co-hosted a talk show Pozner/Donahue for US and Soviet audiences with Phil Donahue. This is his talk at Yale where gives a brief history of post-Soviet era in US-Russia relations and how Putin came to power. I found it interesting that, at the beginning of his term, Putin actually expressed a desire for Russia to join the EU and NATO. His talk starts at minute 6 and ends at ~40, followed by Q&A.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ

5. Article from National Security Archive at George Washington University on the topic of NATO expansion eastward:
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... ders-early

6. A Russian fact-check website. https://waronfakes.com
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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What a fascinating post, Foglifter! If my post knocks the thread to a new page, I'll copy your post in its entirety so it's that the top.
Some of the things you mentioned have been covered, like the Oliver Stone Ukraine on Fire film and some of the NATO stuff, but it's great to hear about your personal experience and perspective!
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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foglifter wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:15 pm I wanted to write this post for a long time.
Hats off, foglifter for the effort sharing your story. I am really not in position to comment too much on this war, as more I think, more confused I personally get.

PS. Yes, they still produce Слънчев Бряг, but I do not think its the same quality it used to be ... :)
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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dualstow wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:31 pm What a fascinating post, Foglifter! If my post knocks the thread to a new page, I'll copy your post in its entirety so it's that the top.
Some of the things you mentioned have been covered, like the Oliver Stone Ukraine on Fire film and some of the NATO stuff, but it's great to hear about your personal experience and perspective!
I'm glad you like it, dualstow. I had much more to say, but will keep that for other posts if we talk about more specific topics. I'm open to questions.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Here’s a link back to foglifter’s post on the previous page, guys
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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foglifter wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:43 pm
I had much more to say, but will keep that for other posts if we talk about more specific topics. I'm open to questions.
One question I’d like to ask: do you lean more toward the notion that Russians are suffering defeat or that this is just a brief setback and that they are going to “turn up the heat”?

I have more questions: If the Russians are eventually victorious, do you foresee an attempt at a broad occupation of Ukraine or maybe just Russian-speaking enclaves? (I mean the latter would obviously be more feasible, but what would that say about the denazification pretext for the invasion?) Or no occupation at all?

My last post on the previous page was of the Nonzero newsletter indicating that the Russian campaign may be trying to limit Ukrainian casualties. That may very well be the case. However, I think Putin has no reservations about sending many, many more Russian soldiers to risk their lives in what looks like a doomed adventure in Ukraine. In other words, he’s not going to give up anytime soon. Do you agree?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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dualstow wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:24 pm
foglifter wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:43 pm
I had much more to say, but will keep that for other posts if we talk about more specific topics. I'm open to questions.
One question I’d like to ask: do you lean more toward the notion that Russians are suffering defeat or that this is just a brief setback and that they are going to “turn up the heat”?
LONDON, March 25 (Reuters) - In a scaled-back formulation of its war goals, Russia said on Friday that the first phase of its military operation was mostly complete and it would focus on completely "liberating" Ukraine's breakaway eastern Donbass region.

The announcement appeared to indicate that Moscow may be switching to more limited objectives after running into fierce Ukrainian resistance in a month of war.
The Russian MoD did mention the word "focus". They said "the main tasks of the first stage of the operation have been completed. The combat potential of the Armed Forces of Ukraine has been significantly reduced” and then they said this will allow the Russian side to focus its main efforts on achieving the main goal - the liberation of Donbass. I haven't found any further evidence or elaboration in Russian sources that this change of focus meant scaling down in other areas. So far it seems more like guessing. Note the "appeared to" and "may be" in the Reuters's piece.
dualstow wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:24 pm I have more questions: If the Russians are eventually victorious, do you foresee an attempt at a broad occupation of Ukraine or maybe just Russian-speaking enclaves? (I mean the latter would obviously be more feasible, but what would that say about the denazification pretext for the invasion?) Or no occupation at all?
I think it makes no sense for Russia to limit the goals to the Donetsk/Lugansk region. If they had taken control of that area only and stopped then the situation wouldn't have been much different from pre-2/24, the only difference is Russians would control a slightly bigger area. This view was voiced by some analysts as well.
dualstow wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:24 pm My last post on the previous page was of the Nonzero newsletter indicating that the Russian campaign may be trying to limit Ukrainian casualties. That may very well be the case. However, I think Putin has no reservations about sending many, many more Russian soldiers to risk their lives in what looks like a doomed adventure in Ukraine. In other words, he’s not going to give up anytime soon. Do you agree?
Correct, in the very beginning the Russian army was given strict orders to treat the regular Ukrainian army servicemen with respect (not sure if this was applicable to nationalist groups and foreign mercenaries). Basically, those who surrendered would be offered an opportunity to go home (although depending on the circumstances some might be kept as PoWs, I don't have more detailed information on that).

The troops Russians used so far are not the ordinary units, these are elite units with a significant number of contract soldiers and recent battlefield experience in Syria. These folks are prepared, they are certainly not just teenagers who were summoned and thrown into the war zone. There was one case where a supply group staffed by less experienced soldiers was attacked by Ukrainians, but this was an isolated incident which was investigated and those responsible were reprimanded. I think Russians will continue expanding further in all directions.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Artificial borders often seem to feature bad blood among tribes.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow »

Thanks foglifter!
I Shrugged wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:45 pm Artificial borders often seem to feature bad blood among tribes.
Aren’t they mostly artificial, all over the world?
ppnewbie
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by ppnewbie »

Thanks for the post foglifter!
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