Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Jack Jones
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Jack Jones » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:02 am

In Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, the most productive members of society grow tired of carrying the yoke. The value of their productive effort is increasingly drained by cronies in Washington. They awaken to the fact that they are responsible for keeping this anti-life system going. They realize it is morally imperative to opt out.

One by one, they disappear from their posts as the leaders of enterprise and move to a hidden valley, Galt's Gulch, where a new kind of society is starting, a Libertarian utopia where gold is used as a medium of exchange.

Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch of the digital age. Although there have been some meatspace efforts to get like-minded individuals in one area of the country like the Free State Project, maybe it's not necessary? One at a time, as each of us awakens to the fact that the financial system does not serve us, we can opt out by moving our wealth outside that system, to Satoshi's Gulch. Unlike Galt's Gulch, we can even opt out gradually, as we become more sure of ourselves.

Once your wealth is in Satoshi's Gulch, you are no longer tied down to your place of residence. If things go south in your country, you can bring your wealth to another country, w/out fear of confiscation like with gold.
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:29 pm

In the US you would have to add ...as long as you don't report your holdings. I inquired here (I have never owned any crypto), and was told that the transactions are already very hard to hide whether you are acquiring or selling. I was under the impression that it was basically impossible to trace but they say I was quite mistaken.
Jack Jones
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Jack Jones » Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:53 pm

If you create a new wallet and I send you some Bitcoin, nobody but me knows that you own that Bitcoin. If you acquire your Bitcoin through an exchange w/ KYC requirements, that's another story.
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:08 pm

Jack Jones wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:53 pm
If you create a new wallet and I send you some Bitcoin, nobody but me knows that you own that Bitcoin. If you acquire your Bitcoin through an exchange w/ KYC requirements, that's another story.
Yeah, you are talking to a crypto illiterate. I mean, I understand the concepts of what you just wrote, but I have no idea how easy or hard it is to do those things, and what the risks might be during and afterwards.

In general, I support your idea from the OP. That's what I had hoped bitcoin would do; let people break free of central banks and government. I've always said that it would never be allowed to happen. Not without users being forced to operate like drug dealers anyway. If I lived in places like Africa, Argentina, etc. where the money is a much bigger problem than here, I'd definitely be looking harder at it. The money is a problem here too, but not like those places.

The Galt argument against what I just wrote would be that the government operates like a gang of thieves, so it's completely moral to circumvent their laws in order to get around their bad acts. But where the rubber meets the road is that while government is half assed at a lot of things, one thing they are very good at here in the US is punishing people whom they want to make examples of.
boglerdude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1313
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:40 am
Contact:

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by boglerdude » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:37 am

What do Gates and Bezos want to happen with crypto. Do they want Amazon and Microsoft to accept it as payment? Is that in their interest?
Jack Jones
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Jack Jones » Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:58 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:08 pm
Jack Jones wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:53 pm
If you create a new wallet and I send you some Bitcoin, nobody but me knows that you own that Bitcoin. If you acquire your Bitcoin through an exchange w/ KYC requirements, that's another story.
Yeah, you are talking to a crypto illiterate. I mean, I understand the concepts of what you just wrote, but I have no idea how easy or hard it is to do those things, and what the risks might be during and afterwards.
Creating a wallet can be done on your computer, while it is offline. You can also generate an address to receive funds while you are offline. You could write that address down on a piece of paper, buy a money order with cash, and send both to someone. That person sends BTC to your address. You now have the keys (in your wallet) to a lock box in grand central station (the blockchain) with a dufflebag of cash. Your risks are losing the keys or having them stolen. You have some interesting ways to mitigate those risks (e.g. 2-of-3 keys required to spend). Also, in this example, the person who sent you the BTC doesn't have to know who you are. So in this case, no one knows you own the bitcoin. This can be done in practice on peer-to-peer platforms like bisq.network, which uses an escrow system to prevent foul play.
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:08 pm
In general, I support your idea from the OP. That's what I had hoped bitcoin would do; let people break free of central banks and government. I've always said that it would never be allowed to happen. Not without users being forced to operate like drug dealers anyway. If I lived in places like Africa, Argentina, etc. where the money is a much bigger problem than here, I'd definitely be looking harder at it. The money is a problem here too, but not like those places.

The Galt argument against what I just wrote would be that the government operates like a gang of thieves, so it's completely moral to circumvent their laws in order to get around their bad acts. But where the rubber meets the road is that while government is half assed at a lot of things, one thing they are very good at here in the US is punishing people whom they want to make examples of.
Yes, the description above of buying money orders in cash does seem like operating like a drug dealer. However, that is the price of anonymity. You don't need to acquire BTC that way, but it's possible. And it's not about tax avoidance. It's just good operational security for as few people to know about these things as possible. You don't tell your neighbors you've got gold in the safe.

In terms of regulatory issues, I think Bitcoin has been majorly de-risked in the past few years. It's being financialized, there are publicly traded companies, a question on page one of the 1040, SEC statements. Bitcoin mining operations are setting up here because things are so stable and predictable at this point.

I agree that the US is good at punishing individuals to make examples. Ross Ulbricht comes to mind. However, Bitcoin is not something where you have to put your neck out there. You can just quietly accumulate it. And the more people who get on board, the more unpalatable it will be to crush it or those who use it.
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2815
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Kbg » Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:49 am

What's the purpose of anonymity? What does it get me that is tangible and useful if I'm not hiding something?

Why is it REALLY in my best interest to use a crytpo-currency vs. my credit card that at the end of the day is also nothing but a ledger of 1s/0s that are encrypted in transit?

If my BTC is hacked and stolen, what is my recourse? Answer - none.

If there is a fraudulent transaction on my credit card, what is my recourse ? Answer - tell my bank and it's no longer my problem.

I've yet to find any good answers from crypto-currency religionists when it comes to the practical aspects of being a good form of money.

It has been proven with some massive hacks not to be all that secure.

The whole wallet thing you laid out was nicely captured by the comment "yeah, you are talking to a crypto illiterate" as compared to say...waving my phone in front of a plastic thing and I get a cheeseburger and fries in return...and I'm encrypted before transit to that plastic thingy.

It's a fact that even BTC is not widely accepted for commercial activities and the lower tier cryptos are mostly hyped scam jobs and accepted exactly no where except exchanges where people trade them and the exchange takes its skim (and quickly and automatically dumps it for real currencies (check it out, all true).

98% of the arguments come down to "Hey, we're sticking it to the man."...not a compelling argument for why cryptos should replace actual currencies.

Note: I'm not referring to the useful aspects of the technology for other uses, just money. And also...I do think digital money is going to definitely become a thing. I just happen to think for the most part we already have it in the form of a piece of plastic with a chip that is a little over 2x3in.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Xan » Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:06 am

I just don't see how "anonymity" and "technology that immutably and forever keeps a complete record of all transactions ever" go together at all.
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by SomeDude » Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:48 am

Geeze KBG looks like there's something we agree on at about a 99% level.

Crap does that mean i have to rethink cryptos now? ;D

My biggest issue with it is that it has no tangible or intangible value, its just a digital token as far as i can tell and only belief that someone will want it props the price up.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by vnatale » Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:26 am

Xan wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:06 am

I just don't see how "anonymity" and "technology that immutably and forever keeps a complete record of all transactions ever" go together at all.


It did not appear to me that kgb was linking the two together.

His opening line: "What's the purpose of anonymity? What does it get me that is tangible and useful if I'm not hiding something?" told me that he generally values practicality & convenience over anonymity, recognizing that they can be mutually exclusive.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Jack Jones
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Jack Jones » Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:57 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:58 am
In terms of regulatory issues, I think Bitcoin has been majorly de-risked in the past few years. It's being financialized, there are publicly traded companies, a question on page one of the 1040, SEC statements. Bitcoin mining operations are setting up here because things are so stable and predictable at this point.
Senators from Oregon, Wyoming, and Pennsylvania standing up for the industry:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ar-AAMWn59
Jack Jones
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Jack Jones » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:58 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:49 am
What's the purpose of anonymity? What does it get me that is tangible and useful if I'm not hiding something?
Well, we are hiding something. I contribute to this forum anonymously because I don't want you guys coming for my gold and bitcoin.
Kbg wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:49 am
Why is it REALLY in my best interest to use a crytpo-currency vs. my credit card that at the end of the day is also nothing but a ledger of 1s/0s that are encrypted in transit?
I don't think it's in your best interest to use Bitcoin for your day to day transactions. Gold and credit cards are not competing. Bitcoin is e-gold. It's in people's interest to hold it over fiat currency because it will not be inflated, and inflation is bad for the people. We have a frame of reference around prices and wages that solidifies when we are younger. We're aiming to be millionaire's (some of you probably are) because that was a big deal when we were younger but by the time we make it, it'll be small potatoes. People aren't going to their bosses to ask for a 10% inflation raise every year. Inflation is for servicing government debt at the people's expense. I think corporations are also fine with it because they are savvy enough to update prices accordingly. However, people are another story, they are getting fucked by it.
Kbg wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:49 am
98% of the arguments come down to "Hey, we're sticking it to the man."...not a compelling argument for why cryptos should replace actual currencies.
Yeah, it seems you are getting stuck on the day to day use. Bitcoin doesn't have to replace credit cards. I'm cool with a future where I use a credit card for day to day transactions, then when the bill comes at the end of the month, I pay it off in Bitcoin, or by first selling some, as one would do with a stash of gold.
Jack Jones
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Jack Jones » Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:34 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:06 am
I just don't see how "anonymity" and "technology that immutably and forever keeps a complete record of all transactions ever" go together at all.
Anonymity is unfortunately not baked into Bitcoin and will probably never be. However, my previous example showed how one could own Bitcoin anonymously. Let me know if I could explain something about it in more detail.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Xan » Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:45 pm

Jack Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:34 pm
Xan wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:06 am
I just don't see how "anonymity" and "technology that immutably and forever keeps a complete record of all transactions ever" go together at all.
Anonymity is unfortunately not baked into Bitcoin and will probably never be. However, my previous example showed how one could own Bitcoin anonymously. Let me know if I could explain something about it in more detail.
But you lose the anonymity if and when you (or your heirs) actually uses it for something, right?
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2815
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Kbg » Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:51 pm

Jack Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:58 pm
Bitcoin is e-gold. It's in people's interest to hold it over fiat currency because it will not be inflated, and inflation is bad for the people.
Jack,

Good rebuttal. I liked it.

I do think it's important to note the above is an assumption. I don't think it's implausible at all that the exact opposite occurs and the stuff goes to zero as measured in USD. The only hope for BTC long-term is that it DOES become widely accepted as a form of money. If that doesn't happen it is going to zero because there is nothing there other than an algorithm.

In favor of not getting crushed is that a lot of very well to do people and business interests are into it now and maybe they will be influential enough to get lawmakers to protect it. (Kinda ironic isn't it?)
Jack Jones
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Jack Jones » Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:07 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:51 pm
Jack Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:58 pm
Bitcoin is e-gold. It's in people's interest to hold it over fiat currency because it will not be inflated, and inflation is bad for the people.
Jack,

Good rebuttal. I liked it.


I'm glad you enjoyed it. I've appreciated your posts because they reflect a skeptical mind. I've been interested in Bitcoin since they were going for $10. During that time, I've been a user of the technology several times, but I was never confident enough in it to hold it as an investment. I lost interest in it in 2017 during the big block wars because I thought the project was going in the wrong direction. After all this personal history with the technology, only recently have I become confident enough to move some of my hard earned wealth into it. In fact, it was someone's posts on this forum that opened my mind to it again...BTC in the VP. So, I appreciate your skepticism, and am happy to rise to the challenge.
Kbg wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:51 pm
I do think it's important to note the above is an assumption. I don't think it's implausible at all that the exact opposite occurs and the stuff goes to zero as measured in USD. The only hope for BTC long-term is that it DOES become widely accepted as a form of money. If that doesn't happen it is going to zero because there is nothing there other than an algorithm.
Yes, I believe they call it an asymmetric bet. If you're wrong, you lose 5% of your portfolio, if you're right, that 5% dwarfs the rest of your portfolio.
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by SomeDude » Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:28 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:45 pm
Jack Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:34 pm
Xan wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:06 am
I just don't see how "anonymity" and "technology that immutably and forever keeps a complete record of all transactions ever" go together at all.
Anonymity is unfortunately not baked into Bitcoin and will probably never be. However, my previous example showed how one could own Bitcoin anonymously. Let me know if I could explain something about it in more detail.
But you lose the anonymity if and when you (or your heirs) actually uses it for something, right?
What can you use it for besides selling it to someone else? I've wondered this for a long time.
Jack Jones
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:12 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Jack Jones » Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:59 am

SomeDude wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:28 pm
What can you use it for besides selling it to someone else? I've wondered this for a long time.
Yeah it's mostly just for exchanging goods, like paper money. You can also set up governance structures where proof of ownership of a coin that is "colored" in some way, gives you a vote in the organization.
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2815
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Kbg » Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:19 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:07 pm
Yes, I believe they call it an asymmetric bet. If you're wrong, you lose 5% of your portfolio, if you're right, that 5% dwarfs the rest of your portfolio.
100% onboard with that statement. BTC could end up being a phenomenally good speculative bet. Well, it goes without saying, it already is.

My criticism is more as stated earlier…skeptical about it long term as a currency replacement
barrett
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1982
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:54 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by barrett » Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:24 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:02 am
In Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, the most productive members of society grow tired of carrying the yoke. The value of their productive effort is increasingly drained by cronies in Washington. They awaken to the fact that they are responsible for keeping this anti-life system going. They realize it is morally imperative to opt out.

One by one, they disappear from their posts as the leaders of enterprise and move to a hidden valley, Galt's Gulch, where a new kind of society is starting, a Libertarian utopia where gold is used as a medium of exchange.
Not sure I agree with this part of your OP. It seems to me that the most productive members of society have done extremely well in the US up to this point. Is that not correct?
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Xan » Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:57 am

It seems to me that the biggest risk is that this fad will pass over, just like tulip bulbs and Beanie Babies. A hunk of shiny metal as opposed to 1110001? Not even a question as to which one is real.

"1110001? Worthless. 1110011? Now THERE'S a number! Have some actual goods and services!" The whole thing is crazy.
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2815
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Kbg » Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:50 pm

Gosh, what’s happening to the board? People are finding consensus.

I’m not sure I have much more to pitch in on this thread. I basically agree with what everyone is saying.

May have to go over to one of the COVID threads. <grin>
User avatar
Kriegsspiel
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4052
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:01 pm

Kbg wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:50 pm
May have to go over to one of the COVID threads. <grin>
Naughty naughty masochist.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2815
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Kbg » Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:53 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:01 pm
Kbg wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:50 pm
May have to go over to one of the COVID threads. <grin>
Naughty naughty masochist.
Not a few times when considering posting there a Godfather quote pops in my head…”Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!”
User avatar
Kriegsspiel
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4052
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:04 pm

Jesus FUCK you're old, let me gif that for you

Image
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
Post Reply