Who should not be allowed to vote?

glennds
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Re: Who should not be allowed to vote?

Post by glennds » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:31 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:02 pm
If the state believes that somebody under 21 can't be trusted to have a sip of beer, then why would it trust that person to cast a vote?
Because one doesn't have anything to do with the other.

However, you might be interested to know that in 30 states it is legal to tend bar at the age of 18.
So by your logic, if the state believes an 18 year old can be trusted to tend bar, why not trust them to cast a vote?

The minimum age to become a paramedic/EMT or firefighter is 18. So if a state believes an 18 year old could be trusted in life saving positions like those, why not trust them to cast a vote?
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Re: Who should not be allowed to vote?

Post by glennds » Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:19 am

Xan,
I've been thinking about this.
Rather than agree to disagree, I have an idea on where we might get together in terms of voting age.

It seems to me your root objection is that a young (18-20 year old) voter is not knowledgeable or qualified enough to vote responsibly.

Rather than a state or Federal government attaching conditions or mandates like compelling military service in order to "earn" the opportunity to vote, maybe the states could play a bigger part in cultivating a knowledgeable voting public.

Speaking from experience with my own kids, in my state the entire focus in K-12 has become STEM curriculum. The majority of non-STEM education has dropped by the wayside. This is because the standardized tests by which they grade and evaluate schools are almost totally based on STEM and as the saying goes, what gets rewarded gets done. So guess what? Civics, government, a lot of Social Studies have disappeared.

So my proposal - bring back (or give greater importance to) Civics and Government into the curriculum, with the idea being that by high school graduation time, a student has at least had exposure to the basic system and history of government, functioning of the branches, an understanding of the electoral process and their role in it, the distinction between Municipal, County, State and Federal government and how they interact with each other. If this knowledge was thought of as a basic skill, necessary to being a functioning citizen in society, it would be a step toward more rational and informed voting (for all BTW, not just those under 21).
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Re: Who should not be allowed to vote?

Post by Xan » Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:23 am

Civics education would be great, but as Pug points out, it would be hard to do well.

Maybe the core issue is that people who haven't been educated by "real life" yet are not qualified to vote. How about voting starting at 18, IF you have held some kind of real job for some amount of time. A private sector job.

Being a perpetual student, or working for an organization which can't fail (eg, government, university) wouldn't count. So yes, we'd have older folks who have never been eligible to vote.

I suppose I'd make an exception for military service here.

Again, this would be basically impossible in practice because it's hard to specifically define what a real job is. But do we really disagree that this would improve things?

(I should clarify that this is all really just a thought experiment, of course.)
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Re: Who should not be allowed to vote?

Post by glennds » Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:30 am

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:17 am
glennds wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:19 am


So my proposal - bring back (or give greater importance to) Civics and Government into the curriculum, with the idea being that by high school graduation time, a student has at least had exposure to the basic system and history of government, functioning of the branches, an understanding of the electoral process and their role in it, the distinction between Municipal, County, State and Federal government and how they interact with each other. If this knowledge was thought of as a basic skill, necessary to being a functioning citizen in society, it would be a step toward more rational and informed voting (for all BTW, not just those under 21).
LOL on so many levels. First of all, this 'civics' you speak of would now have to be geared to a woke anti-racist format, rendering it ridiculous. Secondly, where do you think most 18-25 year olds get their news? Answer: Social media. Which is neither unbiased nor even accurate.

I could go on, but you get the gist.
And your suggestion is....?

Oh yeah, deprive 18-20 year olds of the right to vote because after all they're not even old enough to legally drink.
Unless they join the military, which now makes them qualified to vote. Even though they're still not old enough to legally drink.

Corollary - we're Libertarians here. We support the government witholding an adult's right of self governance unless they first serve the government.

Corollary 2 - Don't provide education in Civics and Government because it might not be the message I want and the students won't vote the way I want either. Instead let's just effectively cut them off.
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Re: Who should not be allowed to vote?

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:24 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:06 am
glennds wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:30 am
MangoMan wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:17 am
glennds wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:19 am


So my proposal - bring back (or give greater importance to) Civics and Government into the curriculum, with the idea being that by high school graduation time, a student has at least had exposure to the basic system and history of government, functioning of the branches, an understanding of the electoral process and their role in it, the distinction between Municipal, County, State and Federal government and how they interact with each other. If this knowledge was thought of as a basic skill, necessary to being a functioning citizen in society, it would be a step toward more rational and informed voting (for all BTW, not just those under 21).
LOL on so many levels. First of all, this 'civics' you speak of would now have to be geared to a woke anti-racist format, rendering it ridiculous. Secondly, where do you think most 18-25 year olds get their news? Answer: Social media. Which is neither unbiased nor even accurate.

I could go on, but you get the gist.
And your suggestion is....?

Oh yeah, deprive 18-20 year olds of the right to vote because after all they're not even old enough to legally drink.
Unless they join the military, which now makes them qualified to vote. Even though they're still not old enough to legally drink.

Corollary - we're Libertarians here. We support the government witholding an adult's right of self governance unless they first serve the government.

Corollary 2 - Don't provide education in Civics and Government because it might not be the message I want and the students won't vote the way I want either. Instead let's just effectively cut them off.
So by your logic, we should also allow 12 year olds to make the decision that they are the wrong gender and undergo hormone suppression. Sorry, Libertarian or not, there has to be some logic. One of my dad's old-world sayings was something about thinking you know everything at every stage of your life and then realizing 10 years later how little you actually knew. I'm 60 now and boy is it ever true.

Public education has become another left-wing indoctrination center. I'm not saying they shouldn't teach civics, I'm saying they shouldn't teach woke civics. Facts are fine, but unfortunately, facts are now secondary to feelings and propaganda. I feel sorry for my grandkids.
I find myself waking up and agreeing with Pug more and more. I may be anti-Pug-anti-woke-phobic. ;D
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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