The issue of diversity

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doodle
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The issue of diversity

Post by doodle » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:06 am

How do we deal with diversity? It's become somewhat of an American mantra that there is strength in diversity. From a genetic biological standpoint, certainly true. I'm very skeptical however with regards to the idea of a truly diverse society functioning very well. We seem to like diversity within certain boundaries. Perhaps we like different music, or dress slightly differently, or maybe eat different foods...but there are limits. When people's core values and beliefs and customs and traditions differ greatly I don't see how that creates a stronger society....maybe a more vibrant one, if by vibrant you are referring to storming the capitol building and widespread violence in the streets. True diversity looks like mixing nomadic traditional native american with landed amish and then interspersing silicon valley and american malls into the middle of that with perhaps a sprinkling of sharia loving taliban. Of course there is no point in diversity if everyone is walled off into enclaves so we have to mix them all up. That doesn't sound like the recipe for a successful society. Heck, white bread middle class Americans can't even tolerate a diversity of opinions regarding guns what makes anyone think we can handle truely diverse differences in cultures? Why do people keep promoting the virtues of diversity when it is so evident that they hate it?
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Re: The issue of diversity

Post by Maddy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:22 am

Your posts leave no doubt whatsoever that you detest diversity.
Why do people keep promoting the virtues of diversity when it is so evident that they hate it?
According to Alinsky, it's all about gaslighting. It's a political weapon; no principle--or even reality--involved.
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Re: The issue of diversity

Post by doodle » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:43 am

Maddy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:22 am
Your posts leave no doubt whatsoever that you detest diversity.
Why do people keep promoting the virtues of diversity when it is so evident that they hate it?
According to Alinsky, it's all about gaslighting. It's a political weapon; no principle--or even reality--involved.
No, I love diversity. I think it's great that the world contains a lot of different cultures that one can experience and learn from. I just don't understand how it's feasible when contained within a singular national body and how by mixing them together you become stronger, instead of more divided and weaker?

Does it not strike that perhaps nomadic cultural values might conflict with landed agricultural ones as an example. I'm not sure how these diverse cultures are supposed to exist side by side without warfare....
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Re: The issue of diversity

Post by Xan » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:19 am

doodle wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:43 am
Maddy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:22 am
Your posts leave no doubt whatsoever that you detest diversity.
Why do people keep promoting the virtues of diversity when it is so evident that they hate it?
According to Alinsky, it's all about gaslighting. It's a political weapon; no principle--or even reality--involved.
No, I love diversity. I think it's great that the world contains a lot of different cultures that one can experience and learn from. I just don't understand how it's feasible when contained within a singular national body and how by mixing them together you become stronger, instead of more divided and weaker?
Agreed, and in fact the modern politically-correct assumptions about diversity actually undermine that. If the principle is that every country has to be welcoming to everybody, and that every country has to operate on the same understanding of "diversity", then true diversity is undermined. Every country is the same.
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doodle
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Re: The issue of diversity

Post by doodle » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:42 am

Xan wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:19 am
doodle wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:43 am
Maddy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:22 am
Your posts leave no doubt whatsoever that you detest diversity.
Why do people keep promoting the virtues of diversity when it is so evident that they hate it?
According to Alinsky, it's all about gaslighting. It's a political weapon; no principle--or even reality--involved.
No, I love diversity. I think it's great that the world contains a lot of different cultures that one can experience and learn from. I just don't understand how it's feasible when contained within a singular national body and how by mixing them together you become stronger, instead of more divided and weaker?
Agreed, and in fact the modern politically-correct assumptions about diversity actually undermine that. If the principle is that every country has to be welcoming to everybody, and that every country has to operate on the same understanding of "diversity", then true diversity is undermined. Every country is the same.
Yes, logically makes no sense.

I would think within a group conformity would be more important than diversity in order to preserve cohesiveness and tranquility. The idea of a republic and state independence accommodating differences is wonderful in theory except it doesn't seem to be working as our cultural differences are falling along urban/rural boundaries. Even the diversity of opinions on this website (quite moderate differences in fact) have prompted quite a bit of strife and advocacy for secession. Our political parties are at each other's throats over the diversity of their views, we have racial tension because diverse ethnicities apparently aren't feeling equally represented. American Indians and native culture has been completely gutted as their traditional lifestyle is incompatible with what America has become. I'm just curious, where is the benefit in any of this? Perhaps trying to throw a blanket over 50 states and trying to preserve a union isnt ideal when we simultaneously value great diversity.
Maddy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:21 am
For the record I wouldn't classify you as the most open minded individual either with your frequent calls to dissenters here to pack up and leave....nerds at the jocks table? Well, go find another table then.


What I HAVE done--repeatedly--is ask those members of the forum who are repeatedly threatening to leave over their disgust with the dominant viewpoint, and who make drama-filled exits only to return again and engage in the same theatrical display, continue to come here. I've never received an answer.

You are welcome to engage in this conversation. If you are disgusted by me and this topic then excuse yourself from the discussion without theatrics per your advice.
Last edited by doodle on Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The issue of diversity

Post by pp4me » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:47 am

I read of a study somewhere that showed that as local communities become more racially and ethnically diverse people tend to stop interacting with their neighbors. Not really surprising that people tend to prefer the company of people like themselves but what the study also showed was that people in the same groups also stopped interacting with each other. I don't recall that the study offered any theories as to why this might be but my guess is that people of the same groups do it out of politeness to the other groups.

I grew up in a rural community that was about as non-diverse as you could get and I could tell you the names of all my neighbors, how many kids they had, how old they were, and what grade they were in. Now I live in a very diverse neighborhood and I couldn't tell you the name of a single neighbor except for a boy named Alex who lives next door with his Indian parents. And I've lived here for 14 years.
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Re: The issue of diversity

Post by SomeDude » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:52 am

Diversity in values, culture, and yes, skin color, appears to result in lower social trust. It also makes it easier for the rulers to direct people's anger at any situation towards the other group. For example, the government through crappy schools, welfare, min wage, anti discrimintion laws etc. make things very tough for blacks. But then the government and media (same thing as we now see) tell black people its unconscious bias from whites that causes their problems.

Whites blame the fact the the government steals so much of their wealth on blacks and mexicans collecting welfare or whatever. Again, the rulers are playing the groups off on each other.

Diversity looks like a weakness to me. The Scandinavian countries are always pointed to as an example that socialism works. I think it's more likely that they are successful because they homogeneity and high social trust, low crime, common values etc. They are successful in spite of socialism because diversity is low. As they get more diverse with refugees from the third world, we'll see what a virtue it really is.
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Re: The issue of diversity

Post by Xan » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:20 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:14 am
Why are upper middle class and middle class neighborhoods generally not diverse?
I think you're falling for the extremely simplistic definition of "diversity". Middle-class and upper-middle-class neighborhoods are generally QUITE diverse: that's where a huge chunk of Indian (subcontinental) and east Asian folks live, for example.

There are at least three different types of "diversity":
* diversity of background, opinion, thought, belief -- this one is ignored by politically correct theory
* diversity of skin color -- this is the one that the politically correct claim to be talking about
* diversity meaning more black people -- this is the one that the politically correct actually mean when they say "diversity" - but mainly only when the black people in question are poor and liberal. Note how the NBA is the "most diverse" - meaning nothing other than "the most black people", and so is the opposite of the other two kinds of diversity!

I think it's clear that the third definition is the weakest, and also is the one you're assuming when you say that middle-class neighborhoods are not diverse.
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Re: The issue of diversity

Post by vnatale » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:50 am

My diversity story.

In 1979 I started playing basketball at a gym in a middle school. That school is in my county with the following current demographics:

White - 93.6%
Black - 1.6%
Hispanic - 4.2%
Other - 0.6%

I'm sure that in 1979 the percentage of whites was even higher.

Being 28 years old when I first started playing there, I fit into the demographics of our playing group.

All white.

All in the mid-20s to early 30s.

As we all kept playing we became a 30s and 40s group.

I think we had two minority players (blacks) who briefly played with a a few times in the 80s and the 90s.

Then, around 2000, things started to change.

We have never been an "open gym" but have been a private, "invitation only" group. We obtain the use of the gym from the town and we self manage. We manage it in such a way so that we don't have too many players showing up, which would end up being aggravating to all since there is too much waiting and not enough playing.

We have a fair amount of turnover. Players who stop coming to play and new ones joining us.

Almost of all our new players come from existing players bringing their friends to play.

It was around 2000 that this latest crop of players started bringing their friends who were minorities - blacks and Hispanics.

We welcomed all of them because for a while we thought we were a dying group as we were having so few numbers show up to play.

In the old days we also had few players under 30 years old who could come to play with us.

Now we've had nearly a full evolution.

Most of the players are under 25 years old (including one who is the starting point guard on my town's high school team) and the players composition for many years now has been 40% minority. I have sometimes looked on the court when two teams are playing and there is only one white person on the court (we have recently added one white woman (27 years old) to play with us).

Look again (above) at this county's present demographics.

I fully believe that we are BY FAR THE most diverse group in our county.

How does that drastic amount of diversity work out?

Well, in the old days when it was just we white guys we had more than a handful of players who were quite disrespectful of one another. It was terrible witnessing how they'd treat other players.

These days? Myself and a fellow player (74 years old) run the place. Both of us are constantly amazed at how much respect our current players show toward one other.

In the outside world they are not all angels.

In 2005 there was a major coordinated drug bust in the county of the local dealers. Most of the arrests occurred of people in my town and the adjoining town where the gym is located. I think 50 people were arrested. Four of them were our players. But when those players walked in that gym door to play with us they WERE angels. Never gave us any trouble.

It's the same to this day.

There is a great deal of affection between myself and these far younger minority players that goes both ways.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I were on the streets of Springfield, MA and someone was assaulting me on the sidewalk and any one of our players (minority or not) was on the other side of the street and saw it that they'd run across the street to come to my aid.

People oftentimes do behave a certain way according to how you are treated by them.

In contrast to our basketball diversity...there is my softball league experience in the same town where I play basketball.

I have been on the same team since 1994.

We've had some blacks on our team. But in all the time I've been playing in that league there have been few blacks on any team in the entire league. Contrasting the above diverse basketball experience to my own softball team -- a few years ago I looked at our roster of players. Out of 17 players all were white except for one Hispanic woman (Peurto Rican).

On the basis of all the above it seems to me from my own personal experience that I've had different experiences than what I have read so far in this forum.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The issue of diversity

Post by barrett » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:28 pm

Vinny,

Regarding your post above, I wonder if the better behavior in the NBA has anything to do with better behavior in leagues like yours regardless of race. In the 1980s and early 1990s, the NBA was a pretty rough place with the Pistons beating up people on their way to a couple of titles and the Knicks then also taking on a super tough mentality. Now players hug it out with the opposition after a game. Might there be a connection? Just a passing thought but I'd be curious to hear what you might say.

Either way, I'm happy to read of your experiences in your league there.
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Re: The issue of diversity

Post by vnatale » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:00 pm

barrett wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:28 pm

Vinny,

Regarding your post above, I wonder if the better behavior in the NBA has anything to do with better behavior in leagues like yours regardless of race. In the 1980s and early 1990s, the NBA was a pretty rough place with the Pistons beating up people on their way to a couple of titles and the Knicks then also taking on a super tough mentality. Now players hug it out with the opposition after a game. Might there be a connection? Just a passing thought but I'd be curious to hear what you might say.

Either way, I'm happy to read of your experiences in your league there.


Had never prior thought of that. However, those Pistons were a fairly segmented part of the NBA.

We do have one player who was playing before I started playing there and who played up until last year.

He's also been historically one of our more sour player and he's not changed at all even after him witnessing the behaviors of the many, many decades younger players.

Finally, we are not a league. We are pickup. You show up when you want to and you leave when you want to.

Consequently we can have anywhere from 8 players to 24 players show up in a given night. And, we can have upwards of 60 different players play with us in a given half (e.g., February to May).

As I stated there is a lot of diversity in those 60 players - 40% of them being minority, even one female, just about every decade of life being represented from teenagers to those in their 70s.

I have a secret Facebook for our basketball group. Mainly to distribute the pictures I take every night we play and to keep everyone informed about anything going on with us.

This is the picture I use as THE picture for our Facebook group.

It does a good job of showing our diversity.

One old (74 years old!)

Four young

Four males

One female

Four whites

One non-white

Vinny

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (158.93 KiB) Viewed 1801 times
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The issue of diversity

Post by murphy_p_t » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:57 pm

"diversity is our strength".... Seems to me to be an ideology which serves the purposes of the government and big business. if you consider that the United States is more like an empire composed of many ethnic and ideological differences, this overriding mantra is a dogma imposed in order to hold the whole thing together.

Alternatively, it seems to be a mantra which only furthers the goals of the cloward-piven strategy. It's like giving poison to the patient and telling him it's medicine needed to make him stronger and healthier.

I suspect the followers of this thread will enjoy reading commentary by the z-man and listening to his podcasts. Z-man power hour.
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