Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

SomeDude
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by SomeDude » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:16 pm

glennds wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:54 pm
Add Angela Merkel to the list of those concerned with Twitter's censoring:

https://www.thelocal.de/20210111/merkel ... roblematic

or

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... oblematic/
Lol

She just thinks she should get to decide who gets to speak, not a company.

Germany does not have freedom of speech. You can get arrested for certain beliefs there if you express them.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by pp4me » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:57 pm

doodle wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:27 pm
It just seems like Libertarians here decry government oversight and involvement in private enterprise, but then when private entities behave like this they act shocked and outraged....I'm confused
Yes you are.

Said private entities can do as they like but that doesn't mean libertarians aren't allowed to be shocked and outraged by it.

(I guess it's pick on Doodle day)
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by vnatale » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:15 pm

pp4me wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:57 pm

doodle wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:27 pm

It just seems like Libertarians here decry government oversight and involvement in private enterprise, but then when private entities behave like this they act shocked and outraged....I'm confused


Yes you are.

Said private entities can do as they like but that doesn't mean libertarians aren't allowed to be shocked and outraged by it.

(I guess it's pick on Doodle day)


However, what comes across to both Doodle and myself (if I am correctly interpreting him) is that this outrage seems to imply that something should be done about it?

What are these things that can be done about it?

Either some government involvement or the private world rising up to provide what the marketplace desires.

We know that the libertarians never want the government solution so we end up confused why other private entities cannot just step up and provide a solution. All I keep hearing is that 73,000.000 people have lost their voices.

I am shocked that no private companies have been in place to immediately swoop down and take advantage of this 73,000,000 person market place just ready to be captured.

Is this not one of those things that could have been well foreseen? The genius of highly competent entrepreneurship is the ability to quickly take care of a marketplace need.

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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by pugchief » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:21 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:15 pm

I am shocked that no private companies have been in place to immediately swoop down and take advantage of this 73,000,000 person market place just ready to be captured.
Vinny, there are several alternatives to Twatter: Parler and Gab. But these companies keep getting undermined by Big Tech and, so far, the government has done nothing to stop this clear violation of anti-trust laws.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by Mark Leavy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:41 pm

So what are the rules?

If I put a billion into re-creating the infrastructure needed for open discussion, is that enough?

Or do I also need to create a banking system - because (reasons).

What about employment for anyone that uses my new infrastructure? Are all of those folks going to be out of work?

Does my business only need to hire folks that don't need to fly? If you use my service, will you not be able to fly?

It's tough to put together a business plan right now.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by pp4me » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:41 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:15 pm
pp4me wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:57 pm
doodle wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:27 pm
It just seems like Libertarians here decry government oversight and involvement in private enterprise, but then when private entities behave like this they act shocked and outraged....I'm confused
Yes you are.

Said private entities can do as they like but that doesn't mean libertarians aren't allowed to be shocked and outraged by it.

(I guess it's pick on Doodle day)
However, what comes across to both Doodle and myself (if I am correctly interpreting him) is that this outrage seems to imply that something should be done about it?

What are these things that can be done about it?

Either some government involvement or the private world rising up to provide what the marketplace desires.

We know that the libertarians never want the government solution so we end up confused why other private entities cannot just step up and provide a solution. All I keep hearing is that 73,000.000 people have lost their voices.

I am shocked that no private companies have been in place to immediately swoop down and take advantage of this 73,000,000 person market place just ready to be captured.

Is this not one of those things that could have been well foreseen? The genius of highly competent entrepreneurship is the ability to quickly take care of a marketplace need.
I haven't read the whole thread but did anybody actually say that the government should do something about it? If not, then how do you know that is what they are thinking?

I agree that conservatives should start competing with the giant tech companies. I expect to see more of it in the future. A lot of them did see it coming and have things in the works.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by InsuranceGuy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:44 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:15 pm
I am shocked that no private companies have been in place to immediately swoop down and take advantage of this 73,000,000 person market place just ready to be captured.

Is this not one of those things that could have been well foreseen? The genius of highly competent entrepreneurship is the ability to quickly take care of a marketplace need.
I agree that should be the response and was the intent of Parler, Gab, etc.

I think the difficulty is that every vendor from text message services to email providers to their lawyers all ditched them on the same day. Investors may be afraid that the next startup may be similarly assaulted. Investor fear may limit capital even for successful ideas if too many market players are acting in concert whether because of collusion or simple fear of similar retribution from the "bigs". It could take the better part of a decade if conservatives have to found law firms, develop speech neutral technologly infastructure for email and other hosting, investing in real estate or other physical assets to prevent politically charged shutdowns. That's all before considering how hard it may be to find talent as working at these startups could doom these employees careers as companies may not be willing to hire people that they view as having deplorable political beliefs.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, but I think there is the potential for some unhealthy fear.

EDIT: It looks like a couple people snuck in their posts before me. Mark - Definitely down a similar avenue in the thought process.
Last edited by InsuranceGuy on Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by vnatale » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:53 pm

pugchief wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:21 pm



Vinny, there are several alternatives to Twatter: Parler and Gab. But these companies keep getting undermined by Big Tech and, so far, the government has done nothing to stop this clear violation of anti-trust laws.


1) I am not seeing a "clear violation".
2) Trump still has an entire Justice Department which he seemingly controls and directs. Why isn't he on this?

Mark Leavy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:41 pm

So what are the rules?

If I put a billion into re-creating the infrastructure needed for open discussion, is that enough?

Or do I also need to create a banking system - because (reasons).

What about employment for anyone that uses my new infrastructure? Are all of those folks going to be out of work?

Does my business only need to hire folks that don't need to fly? If you use my service, will you not be able to fly?

It's tough to put together a business plan right now.


You raise some excellent questions.

However, don't excellent entrepreneurial companies have things in place to deal with all of this? It just should not have been a shock to all of them that all of this could happen.

I think the biggest shock to all is that Trump could have continued to go off an even deeper end than he had in his nearly four years prior. His after election antics have lost him many supporters, even fellow Trump compliant Republican office holders.

pp4me wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:41 pm



I haven't read the whole thread but did anybody actually say that the government should do something about it? If not, then how do you know that is what they are thinking?

I agree that conservatives should start competing with the giant tech companies. I expect to see more of it in the future. A lot of them did see it coming and have things in the works.


At the time I wrote what I wrote I had clearly stated that my assumption was that libertarians would not be advocating for any government involvement. But after I wrote that I did get a response from pugchief stating his believe that the government should get involved.

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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by tomfoolery » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:29 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:41 pm
So what are the rules?

If I put a billion into re-creating the infrastructure needed for open discussion, is that enough?

Or do I also need to create a banking system - because (reasons).

What about employment for anyone that uses my new infrastructure? Are all of those folks going to be out of work?

Does my business only need to hire folks that don't need to fly? If you use my service, will you not be able to fly?

It's tough to put together a business plan right now.
Not only that. But economically, you can’t predict anything. What will interests rates be next year? What will minimum wage be? Will you even be allowed or conduct business or is covid shutdowns still a thing.

Will the corporate tax rate be reverted?

If I’m an investor, I want to see forecasting spreadsheets to estimate my return on capital. But since many of the above variables are unknown, the potential delta of my return on capital might range from minus 50% to plus 100% since each of the unknown factors has its own unknown range.

E.g. tax rates may stay the same or may go up 15%. Covid shut downs may end in a week or in a year or in two years. So if you take the worst case scenario for each of the unknowns, compared to best case scenario, the difference is so enormous, forecasting is impossible. And thus I’m not investing and neither is anyone else.

If Orange man was still president, the tax rate variable would be removed, and thus greater investment would have been likely.

On a side note, to show my fairness, if the economy sucks under Biden for the first year, at least a huge part of that is uncertainty resulting in reduced capital investments. Although to be really fair, he’s the one causing the uncertainty due to proposals he’s stated he’s implement.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by l82start » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:34 am

The greatest triumphs of propaganda have been accomplished, not by doing something, but by refraining from doing. Great is truth, but still greater, from a practical point of view, is silence about truth. By simply not mentioning certain subjects, by lowering what Mr. Churchill calls an "iron curtain" between the masses and such facts or arguments as the local political bosses regard as undesirable, totalitarian propagandists have influenced opinion much more effectively than they could have done by the most eloquent denunciations, the most compelling of logical rebuttals.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:01 am

I82start.........

All I can say is thank goodness it was PRIVATE companies that all at once banned communication from the side pointing out massive election fraud. It would be really bad if this came from the incoming illegitimate government that seized power with voting machines switching votes, miscounting them, tens of thousands of fake ballots that only had Biden's name on them, people pulling out suitcases and running the votes through machines in the middle of the night with no observers, 1,000+ affidavits, basically sworn testimony of fraud they witnessed or took part in, driving thousands of filled out ballots across state lines, back dating ballot envelopes on orders of postal and election supervisors, counting for more than a week in some instances, kicking out republican poll watchers and cheering when they were out of the buildings, boarding up windows to prevent observation even after court orders told them to open up, Biden getting 15M+ more votes than Barrack or Hillary despite being extremely unpopular and not campaigning and a red wave dominating the down ballots across the country, Trump picking up 12M more votes legitimately, nearly all in-person from 2016 and winning 18/19 bellwether counties and Iowa, Ohio, and FL.

Thank Goodness it's PRIVATE companies banning discussion of any of this and memory-holing it to protect the incoming illegitimate government. If the illegitimate government was the one doing it we'd all see what tyranny we were under and it would be awful. We'd really be screwed then lol.

Remember, they had to ban all discussion on their platforms of what happened in the election because otherwise the criminal gang assuming power would have had to and that would be bad.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:26 am

Here is Glenn Greenwald's column today, giving some background about Parler, and laying out the story. Great as usual, and he lays out the case that current leftists are nothing more than political authoritarians. (Which is ironic because all they did was bleat that Trump was a fascist.)

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/how-si ... nopolistic
Critics of Silicon Valley censorship for years heard the same refrain: tech platforms like Facebook, Google and Twitter are private corporations and can host or ban whoever they want. If you don’t like what they are doing, the solution is not to complain or to regulate them. Instead, go create your own social media platform that operates the way you think it should.

The founders of Parler heard that suggestion and tried.
That is because the dominant strain of American liberalism is not economic socialism but political authoritarianism. Liberals now want to use the force of corporate power to silence those with different ideologies. They are eager for tech monopolies not just to ban accounts they dislike but to remove entire platforms from the internet. They want to imprison people they believe helped their party lose elections, such as Julian Assange, even if it means creating precedents to criminalize journalism.
Yet American liberals swoon for this authoritarianism. And they are now calling for the use of the most repressive War on Terror measures against their domestic opponents. On Tuesday, House Homeland Security Chair Bennie Thompson (D-MS) urged that GOP Sens. Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley “be put on the no-fly list,” while The Wall Street Journal reported that “Biden has said he plans to make a priority of passing a law against domestic terrorism, and he has been urged to create a White House post overseeing the fight against ideologically inspired violent extremists and increasing funding to combat them.”
Indeed, a Parler executive told me that of the thirteen people arrested as of Monday for the breach at the Capitol, none appear to be active users of Parler. The Capitol breach was planned far more on Facebook and YouTube.
No authoritarians believe they are authoritarians. No matter how repressive are the measures they support — censorship, monopoly power, no-fly lists for American citizens without due process — they tell themselves that those they are silencing and attacking are so evil, are terrorists, that anything done against them is noble and benevolent, not despotic and repressive. That is how American liberals currently think, as they fortify the control of Silicon Valley monopolies over our political lives, exemplified by the overnight destruction of a new and popular competitor.
And, so we are clear here, are any of you (doodle, Vinny) in favor of what's been done to Parler? Or are you just enjoying it because it hurts people you oppose? This is discussed in the article. Please elaborate.
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