The American Flag

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The American Flag

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:51 pm

I heard something on a podcast today that I’ve been thinking for a few months.

The Stars and Stripes has become a political symbol, favored by conservatives and increasingly out of favor with the left. How long before the US gets a new flag? The current one will become like the Confederate flag is today.
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Re: The American Flag

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:47 am

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:54 pm
I believe the BLM flag is now the top contender for the replacement.
Has it overtaken the rainbow flag? ;)

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Re: The American Flag

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:23 am

I will admit any patriotism I felt when I was younger is definitely waning now.

As one example, the whole Kapernick kneeling thing should have been more about the flag and the anthem representing the freedom we enjoy to allow Kapernick to be able to do such a thing vs. the how dare that well paid black guy do such a thing route.

I believe I recall one interview with a veteran who said he absolutely agreed with his right to take a knee. I wish we would have gone down that path.

Not the "all hail allegiance to the flag" or you are scum/sonofabitch route.

It is unfortunate that it has become more of a symbol of the right. When I see a pickup truck with a flag flying off the back, absolutely my first thought is Trump supporter. And that's bad.

I don't know how we get patriotism back. I do think it is mainly gone. Patriotism was easier when there was less information available and the government was more able to control it, like in WWII war newsreels.
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Re: The American Flag

Post by Xan » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:08 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:13 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:23 am
I will admit any patriotism I felt when I was younger is definitely waning now.

As one example, the whole Kapernick kneeling thing should have been more about the flag and the anthem representing the freedom we enjoy to allow Kapernick to be able to do such a thing vs. the how dare that well paid black guy do such a thing route.

I believe I recall one interview with a veteran who said he absolutely agreed with his right to take a knee. I wish we would have gone down that path.
I can not disagree more. Kaepernick is a POS who in my opinion jump-started the whole BLM/rioting mentality of the last year. But there is no point discussing it, as neither of us will ever be convinced by the other.
Not only that, he took the one symbol (well, two; the anthem and the flag) that should unite us as Americans, no matter what our other allegiances or beliefs, and spat on them. He made those things which have really no other purpose than to unite us into divisive things. He personally is a big part of the reason for the OP's observation. And it's pretty tragic.
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Re: The American Flag

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:39 pm

I wasn't actually expecting most of you guys to agree with me anyway...

The flag, to me, stands for freedom. A work in progress for gays, blacks, and other minorities, but improving generally.

While I pay respect to the flag, it is his right to do what he did. That's what it stands for to me. The freedom to have a different point of view (as VERY evident on this forum) or a different lifestyle and not be imprisoned/killed/etc for it.

And, agree or not, yet again, it was the president who fanned the flames with Kaepernick. And more recently his supporters proudly carrying another flag, a confederate flag, inside the Capitol a couple days ago. What a great symbol that is of a "United" States.

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Re: The American Flag

Post by glennds » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:57 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:08 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:13 am


I can not disagree more. Kaepernick is a POS who in my opinion jump-started the whole BLM/rioting mentality of the last year. But there is no point discussing it, as neither of us will ever be convinced by the other.
Not only that, he took the one symbol (well, two; the anthem and the flag) that should unite us as Americans, no matter what our other allegiances or beliefs, and spat on them. He made those things which have really no other purpose than to unite us into divisive things. He personally is a big part of the reason for the OP's observation. And it's pretty tragic.
I was well aware of the kneeling, but I wasn't aware he actually spat on the flag.
Did you mean it literally or metaphorically?
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Re: The American Flag

Post by Xan » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:57 pm

glennds wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:57 pm
Xan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:08 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:13 am


I can not disagree more. Kaepernick is a POS who in my opinion jump-started the whole BLM/rioting mentality of the last year. But there is no point discussing it, as neither of us will ever be convinced by the other.
Not only that, he took the one symbol (well, two; the anthem and the flag) that should unite us as Americans, no matter what our other allegiances or beliefs, and spat on them. He made those things which have really no other purpose than to unite us into divisive things. He personally is a big part of the reason for the OP's observation. And it's pretty tragic.
I was well aware of the kneeling, but I wasn't aware he actually spat on the flag.
Did you mean it literally or metaphorically?
Metaphorically. It's hard to literally spit on a song.
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Re: The American Flag

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:24 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:01 pm
I guess we are going to debate this.

Kaep has the right to do whatever, just not in his place of employment. And if you're going to complain about the loss of black lives, the place to start is with other blacks, not the rare bad cop. When cops start killing more black people than other blacks, page me and we can talk.
I'm not going to debate it. I'm tired.
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Re: The American Flag

Post by glennds » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:47 pm

Taking a stand versus Taking a stand


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Re: The American Flag

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:19 pm

glennds wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:47 pm
Taking a stand versus Taking a stand


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I will spend my post to do a +1000!
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Re: The American Flag

Post by glennds » Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:18 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:13 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:23 am
I will admit any patriotism I felt when I was younger is definitely waning now.

As one example, the whole Kapernick kneeling thing should have been more about the flag and the anthem representing the freedom we enjoy to allow Kapernick to be able to do such a thing vs. the how dare that well paid black guy do such a thing route.

I believe I recall one interview with a veteran who said he absolutely agreed with his right to take a knee. I wish we would have gone down that path.
I can not disagree more. Kaepernick is a POS who in my opinion jump-started the whole BLM/rioting mentality of the last year. But there is no point discussing it, as neither of us will ever be convinced by the other.

edit: And if I haven't already said it here, I will never purchase another NIke product. Never. Thanks, Colin, for ruining an entire brand.
I don't know if you're a football fan, but you may have to add the entire NFL to your embargo. Did you see the NFL Inspire Change commercial aired during Superbowl?
In addition to plenty of other anti-racism imagery, they showcased (celebrated?) players kneeling although Kaepernick himself was not in the footage.
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Re: The American Flag

Post by pp4me » Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:35 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:58 pm
glennds wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:18 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:13 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:23 am
I will admit any patriotism I felt when I was younger is definitely waning now.

As one example, the whole Kapernick kneeling thing should have been more about the flag and the anthem representing the freedom we enjoy to allow Kapernick to be able to do such a thing vs. the how dare that well paid black guy do such a thing route.

I believe I recall one interview with a veteran who said he absolutely agreed with his right to take a knee. I wish we would have gone down that path.
I can not disagree more. Kaepernick is a POS who in my opinion jump-started the whole BLM/rioting mentality of the last year. But there is no point discussing it, as neither of us will ever be convinced by the other.

edit: And if I haven't already said it here, I will never purchase another NIke product. Never. Thanks, Colin, for ruining an entire brand.
I don't know if you're a football fan, but you may have to add the entire NFL to your embargo. Did you see the NFL Inspire Change commercial aired during Superbowl?
In addition to plenty of other anti-racism imagery, they showcased (celebrated?) players kneeling although Kaepernick himself was not in the footage.
Not only was the game a disappointment, this was by far the worst lineup of commercials ever. Nauseating left wing virtue signalling from major corporations virtually non-stop. Gillette was also already on my list of no-buy products after their anti-male tirade last year, and I may have to add a few more companies. It's getting hard to avoid them all. >:(
I hadn't watched a game all year even though I'm a Tampa Bay homeboy and always been a fan of Tom Brady. Intended to watch the whole thing but turned it off the moment Biden and "Doctor" Jill came on the screen. Watched something else but tuned back in every once in a while until a commercial came on so I didn't see a single one of them.

I guess this is what I missed according to the Babylon Bee....

Conservatives Sit Down For A Relaxing Evening Of Being Insulted By Every Major Corporation In America....
And I just read it was the least watched championship game since 1969. Wonder why.
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Re: The American Flag

Post by vnatale » Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:19 pm

pp4me wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:35 pm


And I just read it was the least watched championship game since 1969. Wonder why.


I have only seen one football game since that 1969 game, which was the great Namath / Unitas game.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The American Flag

Post by pp4me » Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:04 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:19 pm
pp4me wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:35 pm

And I just read it was the least watched championship game since 1969. Wonder why.
I have only seen one football game since that 1969 game, which was the great Namath / Unitas game.
Missed that one. Was having an overseas adventure at the time.

I remember well when the Cleveland Browns beat Johnny U. and company 27-0 while in was in high school even though everyone said the Baltimore Colts were unbeatable. I lived in Ohio and Jim Brown was my hero. I think it was the first game I ever watched in color at my grandparent's house.
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Re: The American Flag

Post by vnatale » Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:15 pm

The Super Bowl’s Woke Capitalism

The NFL is desperate to showcase Black talent in an effort to get us to ignore its treatment of Black people.

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/super-bowl/


The NFL is not the only business to use “woke marketing” while hiding an ugly underbelly. To appeal to a younger generation that is more diverse and less tolerant of intolerance, most businesses play by the “Brooklyn Without Limits” playbook. But it is difficult to think of an institution that does it more ruthlessly than the NFL. “Celebrating Black voices, while stymying Black opportunity and destroying Black minds” is hardly the best look, so the league makes this grand effort to portray itself as something it’s not. The gap between what the owners put forward publicly and the reality of their Jim Crow business practices can no longer be ignored. The question is whether this league will be able to endure the weight of these contradictions for much longer, without actually engaging in real systemic change.

People inside the league offices have told me that these performative displays are a part of trying to turn the page toward a more enlightened future. They say that the league is changing and that progress takes time. I pondered that calculus at the start of Sunday’s game, and then the Kansas City Chiefs’ racist “war chant” was piped through the stadium sound system. This league isn’t changing. It is only becoming more effective at fake representation and false promises.
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Re: The American Flag

Post by GT » Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:50 am

Dallas Mavericks Owner Mark Cuban Stops Playing the National Anthem at Home Games

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/da ... d=msedgntp
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Re: The American Flag

Post by Xan » Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:59 am

I haven't heard a satisfactory explanation for why Indian team names are "racist".

I'll bet a lot that the woke police believe that when a team is named after white people, that that's racism by white people against non-white people. And we certainly know that when a team is named after non-white people, that's also racism by white people against non-white people. Pretty much that's because EVERYTHING is racism by white people against non-white people, in their view.

When the Fighting Irish or the Ragin' Cajuns take the field, or when the Minnesota Vikings dress up in long blond braids and blow that enormous horn, then team names and mascots are honoring the people involved. But when the team mascot has an Indian theme, then team names and mascots are DIShonoring the people involved. Why the difference?
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Re: The American Flag

Post by Xan » Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:04 am

GT wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:50 am
Dallas Mavericks Owner Mark Cuban Stops Playing the National Anthem at Home Games

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/da ... d=msedgntp
Certainly that must be where all this is heading. I don't see how owners will keep playing it: if they don't like the anthem, then they'll stop, and if they do like the anthem, they might also stop in order to stop seeing it dishonored.

Well, congratulations... What's been achieved, exactly? Now we don't even have our national symbols to hold us together. The civil rights protests of the '60s appealed to American honor: "the American dream is a wonderful thing that should apply to us too". And that worked! Today, they just want to burn it down. I can't think of anything more divisive.

McWhorter and Loury talked about that a bit in this video (link it to that section of it):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mNfxayyNfk&t=2761s
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Re: The American Flag

Post by glennds » Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:19 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:59 am
I haven't heard a satisfactory explanation for why Indian team names are "racist".

I'll bet a lot that the woke police believe that when a team is named after white people, that that's racism by white people against non-white people. And we certainly know that when a team is named after non-white people, that's also racism by white people against non-white people. Pretty much that's because EVERYTHING is racism by white people against non-white people, in their view.

When the Fighting Irish or the Ragin' Cajuns take the field, or when the Minnesota Vikings dress up in long blond braids and blow that enormous horn, then team names and mascots are honoring the people involved. But when the team mascot has an Indian theme, then team names and mascots are DIShonoring the people involved. Why the difference?
Assuming this is a serious question....
Maybe the answer is because most of the Indian names are pejorative labels imposed by white conquerors. Admittedly some are worse than others. For example, I can't think of too many Native Americans that would refer to themselves as redskins, or braves for that matter. Maybe chiefs is not quite as bad. I know of no Native Americans that refer to themselves or their peers as Indians. In Native American culture it is an accepted fact that the name Indian was a misnomer label that was slapped on them by Columbus when he though he had arrived in India.

Your examples of Fighting Irish and Ragin' Cajuns are using names that those ethnic groups originated and use to distinguish and describe themselves, with the addition of an adjective that could only be positive in the context of sports. Imagine if someone came up with the name Cincinnati Crackers, would it would feel a little pejorative to white people?

It's really not that hard a concept to look at issues from a different cultural viewpoint than your own. Once you can do so, some of these types of questions become self-explanatory.
Of course if one or the other party is overreacting, or unreasonable in their interpretation, or proposed resolution of the issue, that's a different story, but the root of the issue should be evident.

Personally I think the term racist is thrown around too easily and triggers a defensive response in many people that just becomes counterproductive. Sometimes other words like disrespectful, discourteous, impolite, insensitive or tasteless is enough. I know people who if accused of being a racist will take it as a declaration of nuclear war. But if you told them something they said or did was impolite or rude, they might handle it a little better and perhaps be willing to listen.

Maybe in your mind Xan, the term racist is too strong for the issue we're discussing. But having heard the rationale above, would you agree that some of these "Indian" names could be considered insensitive, rude or uncouth to Native Americans?
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Re: The American Flag

Post by Xan » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:13 pm

glennds wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:19 pm
Maybe in your mind Xan, the term racist is too strong for the issue we're discussing. But having heard the rationale above, would you agree that some of these "Indian" names could be considered insensitive, rude or uncouth to Native Americans?
"could be considered" is the bar? The world is going to be awfully milquetoast if anything that "could be considered insensitive" has to go to the chopping block.

9 in 10 Native Americans are not bothered by the Washington Redskins

"Proud" is the most common word association that Native Americans have with the Washington Redskins

So basically, it's the white liberals which are banning these names, which effectively removes Native Americans from one of the most prominent ways that people get reminded that they still exist. Congratulations?
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Re: The American Flag

Post by glennds » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:07 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:19 pm
Maybe in your mind Xan, the term racist is too strong for the issue we're discussing. But having heard the rationale above, would you agree that some of these "Indian" names could be considered insensitive, rude or uncouth to Native Americans?
"could be considered" is the bar? The world is going to be awfully milquetoast if anything that "could be considered insensitive" has to go to the chopping block.

So basically, it's the white liberals which are banning these names, which effectively removes Native Americans from one of the most prominent ways that people get reminded that they still exist. Congratulations?
Help me understand. Is your answer yes, having heard the rationale I provided you could see where there might be a position ..... but nonetheless it's too low a bar to warrant any change or action?

I've seen the stat you provided and I get it. If the majority of Native Americans have no issue with a team name, then what's the big deal. And I get that the idea of "woke police" presents issues of it's own whether it is liberals behind it, attorneys, or whomever.

I was just responding to your original question of why an Indian name would be a controversy when names like the Fighting Irish or Ragin Cajuns are not.

Some of my own views about Native American and African American issues are based on my reading of the history of treatment of both groups. I've also spent a fair amount of time on the Navajo and Hopi reservations which might influence my thinking about Native Americans.
But I recognize that for many the things that happened a long time ago or are happening outside the boundaries of one's own neighborhood may not have much meaning hence the questions.
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Re: The American Flag

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:06 pm

TBH, I think "Football Team" is the best team name in the league now.

It used to be the Texans (I mean... come on...).
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: The American Flag

Post by Xan » Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:16 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:06 pm
TBH, I think "Football Team" is the best team name in the league now.

It used to be the Texans (I mean... come on...).
Did you know that the Chiefs were the Dallas Texans in the 50s, until the Cowboys were created and ran them out of town?
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Re: The American Flag

Post by vnatale » Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:23 pm

GT wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:50 am

Dallas Mavericks Owner Mark Cuban Stops Playing the National Anthem at Home Games

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/da ... d=msedgntp


Educate me again why the national anthem must be played at sporting events.

Why isn't it played at the start of business for wherever everyone here works?

Why doesn't it get played before all musical entertainment events?

Why doesn't it get played at the beginning of every school day?

Why don't we all play it the first thing out of bed in the morning?

Why .............................
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Re: The American Flag

Post by GT » Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:09 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:23 pm
GT wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:50 am
Dallas Mavericks Owner Mark Cuban Stops Playing the National Anthem at Home Games

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/da ... d=msedgntp
Educate me again why the national anthem must be played at sporting events.

Why isn't it played at the start of business for wherever everyone here works?

Why doesn't it get played before all musical entertainment events?

Why doesn't it get played at the beginning of every school day?

Why don't we all play it the first thing out of bed in the morning?

Why .............................
I wouldn't mind having the Jimi Hendrix version as my alarm sound in the morning but that's just me.

Here is the back story you wanted - Looks like a tradition going back over 100 years - comradery and patriotism

The tradition of singing the national anthem at sporting events began during the 1918 World Series. During the seventh-inning stretch of the first game between the Boston Red Sox and the Chicago Cubs, the band began to play The Star-Spangled Banner (it was not the official national anthem at that time). Players turned to face the centerfield flagpole, and fans, who were already on their feet, began to sing along. By the end, nearly the entire stadium was singing, and the song ended to a chorus of thunderous applause.

At the time, World War I was nearing an end. Singing The Star-Spangled Banner that day was a well-timed display of comradery and patriotism. Harry Frazee, then owner of the Red Sox, subsequently began each other game of the series by having the band play the song.

The playing of The Star-Spangled Banner before games became such a hit, that after the war ended, the song continued to be played at baseball games. However, it was mainly reserved for notable occasions, like holidays, opening day, and the World Series.

During World War II, the song became even more popular, as it was a way for large crowds to show their patriotism. Additionally, advances in technology meant that the song could be played over speaker systems instead of requiring a band, making it easier to incorporate into games. By the time the war had ended, The Star-Spangled Banner had shifted from an exclusively baseball tradition, and quickly spread to other sporting events.
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