Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

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Maddy
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by Maddy » Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:58 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:22 am
When you come to the Vegan Internet forum, and describe how you really admire veganism, and used to eat meat all of the time, but you’ve bought a vegan cookbook, and occasionally substitute some eggs and beef into the recipe, but mostly you’re 90% vegan, and then post asking for ideas on how to best add meat to vegan dishes. On a vegan web forum. And then when people politely tell you that vegans don’t eat meat, you retort that they are extremists and cite studies showing the benefits of meat, in small doses at least.
This is priceless. Thank you for such a wonderfully succinct sum-up of the situation!
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by doodle » Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:10 am

Except you are more like vegans that claim to be running a petting zoo but as the animals get past their "cute" stage you sell them off to the local meat processing plant. You might not eat them, but your petting zoos policies certainly don't lead to their liberation and freedom and ultimately you really don't give a damn about their well being, only in so much as what you can get out of them.
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by pmward » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:36 am

This is a great example of what I was speaking of a couple weeks ago, about how this forum is extremely unwelcoming and hostile towards anyone who is not a hard right libertarian. If this forum is a hard right libertarian only forum, and if the PP is a hard right libertarian only portfolio, can the mods please speak up and tell us so? If this is the case I will leave and never return.

But considering I see nothing in the name "gyroscopic investing" that hints that it's exclusive to libertarians, nor do I see anything from the mods here stating that this is a libertarian only forum, your hostility and attempt to make all non-libertarians feel unwelcome is silly. If the mods want this to be an libertarian echo chamber please speak now. Else, Tom you really need to chill and be more accepting of other people expressing opinions that are contrary to your own. You label and judge us just as much as we do you. To try to pretend like you're an innocent victim here is silly. You've simply been shoveled the same shit back at you that you've repeatedly shoveled at us. Doesn't feel good does it?
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by doodle » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:46 am


Else, Tom you really need to chill and be more accepting of other people expressing opinions that are contrary to your own. You label and judge us just as much as we do you.
Is it just me, or is it extremely ironic how adament a "libertarian" is about policing the expression of ideas of others?
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:50 am

pmward wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:36 am
This is a great example of what I was speaking of a couple weeks ago, about how this forum is extremely unwelcoming and hostile towards anyone who is not a hard right libertarian. If this forum is a hard right libertarian only forum, and if the PP is a hard right libertarian only portfolio, can the mods please speak up and tell us so? If this is the case I will leave and never return.

But considering I see nothing in the name "gyroscopic investing" that hints that it's exclusive to libertarians, nor do I see anything from the mods here stating that this is a libertarian only forum, your hostility and attempt to make all non-libertarians feel unwelcome is silly. If the mods want this to be an libertarian echo chamber please speak now. Else, Tom you really need to chill and be more accepting of other people expressing opinions that are contrary to your own. You label and judge us just as much as we do you. To try to pretend like you're an innocent victim here is silly. You've simply been shoveled the same shit back at you that you've repeatedly shoveled at us. Doesn't feel good does it?
This forum was created by Craig Rowland to discuss the Permanent Portfolio. Later he and Tex wrote a book on the Permanent Portfolio. I have completely read the book twice and gone back several times for reference.

Anyone else who has also read it can correct me if I am wrong but there is NOTHING about politics in it aside from a healthy dose of not trusting governments to do the right thing.

I was and still am attracted to the Permanent Portfolio strictly on the basis of its logic and that it has worked. Just a strict financial analysis. Zero political analysis attached to it.

Therefore I'm 100% here with pmward that believing in the Permanent Portfolio and its philosophy and logic for how it works does not then tie you to having to take or subscribe to any other political beliefs or philosophies.

You are certainly able to analyze it and tell us how it fits with you political philosophies but, again, that is YOUR choice and NOT binding on anyone else in this forum.

Yes, Harry Browne was our 2000 Libertarian presidential candidate. But in his 1970s book, "How to be free in an unfree world>" he exhorted the readers to never be involved in politics. I also read his smaller Fail Safe investing book twice and also the rather lengthy one he wrote around 1988. In all his investing advice and explanations in those two books I'm just not remembering any political content But, again, maybe I am just forgetting.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by pmward » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:01 am

Right. I think political reasons can be a legitimate reason to own a PP. But it is not the only reason. For anyone to claim that their reason in using a portfolio is the ONE AND ONLY legitimate reason is closed-minded, intolerant, and frankly ridiculous.

Also for someone who is not a moderator to come out and insinuate that this forum is a libertarian only forum, that no view other than libertarian views are legit, and that anybody who thinks that alt-right libertarian views are "extreme" should either STFU or get lost is a pretty bad look for the forum, imo.
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by doodle » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:05 am

Harry Browne had plenty to say about politics...after all, he ran on the libertarian ticket multiple times. I agree with many of his policies, others I disagree. Basically I don't have the level of faith that the free market will solve all of humanities problems that some people here do. I believe in smaller government and personal responsibility, but I also think there are areas where it is necessary to have legislation and regulation. I think our government today is a shit show but I recognize the need for it's existence. I think it's better to focus on ways to improve it rather than call for it's wholesale elimination.



https://www.ontheissues.org/text/Harry_Browne.htm
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:37 am

doodle wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:05 am
Harry Browne had plenty to say about politics...after all, he ran on the libertarian ticket multiple times. I agree with many of his policies, others I disagree. Basically I don't have the level of faith that the free market will solve all of humanities problems that some people here do. I believe in smaller government and personal responsibility, but I also think there are areas where it is necessary to have legislation and regulation. I think our government today is a shit show but I recognize the need for it's existence. I think it's better to focus on ways to improve it rather than call for it's wholesale elimination.



https://www.ontheissues.org/text/Harry_Browne.htm
Yes, he did. But for both this radio shows and his books I think that, in general, they were either strictly financial or strictly political with no mix?

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by sophie » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:41 am

Thank you for putting the cards on the table Tom!!!!!! I second what Maddy said.

Unfortunately, the phrase "casting pearls before swine" comes to mind. All the expected responses from the usual players. I highly recommend the "ignore" list for dealing with it.

One more comment. This is indeed a libertarian forum. It is devoted to the Permanent Portfolio which was designed according to libertarian principles by Harry Browne - who was very much a libertarian. His political ideas are not really separable from his monetary philosophy, and similarly, the PP is not really separable from libertarianism.

Perhaps those of you who don't like libertarianism and promote active investing should indeed go elsewhere. This is definitely not the forum for that. There are others out there I am sure.
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by Maddy » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:51 am

I can only speak for myself, but I would only suggest that somebody go elsewhere when they are so persistently aggrieved by the dominant viewpoint expressed in a particular forum that they, themselves, see the forum as useless, and when they are nonetheless devoting large amounts of precious life energy to the principal purpose of defeating the viewpoints of people with whom they will never see eye to eye. When somebody goes out of their way to stay in a relationship they hate, there's something either underhanded or pathological going on.
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by l82start » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:56 am

the forum itself has zero political ideology, the members are free to post their own if they choose to, they are free to disagree if they choose to, they are free to keep it to themself and stick to investing if they choose to,

because of the nature of the portfolio and its origins, it has and always will be, a draw to people who are freedom/liberty/libertarian oriented, it will (i hope) always dismiss appeals to impose top down authority on the members regarding what is an allowed philosophy.

members are free to make appeals to top down authority if they choose to, members are free to comment about others members appeals to a top down authority if they choose to,
if being free to speak freely or having to witness others doing so, is a hardship to some, they are still free to and welcomed as fellow investors when they choose to stick to posting about investing...
-Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it

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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:08 am

l82start wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:56 am
the forum itself has zero political ideology, the members are free to post their own if they choose to, they are free to disagree if they choose to, they are free to keep it to themself and stick to investing if they choose to,

because of the nature of the portfolio and its origins, it has and always will be, a draw to people who are freedom/liberty/libertarian oriented, it will (i hope) always dismiss appeals to impose top down authority on the members regarding what is an allowed philosophy.

members are free to make appeals to top down authority if they choose to, members are free to comment about others members appeals to a top down authority if they choose to,
if being free to speak freely or having to witness others doing so, is a hardship to some, they are still free to and welcomed as fellow investors when they choose to stick to posting about investing...
Thank you! Quite clear.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by glennds » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:08 am

l82start wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:56 am
the forum itself has zero political ideology, the members are free to post their own if they choose to, they are free to disagree if they choose to, they are free to keep it to themself and stick to investing if they choose to,

because of the nature of the portfolio and its origins, it has and always will be, a draw to people who are freedom/liberty/libertarian oriented, it will (i hope) always dismiss appeals to impose top down authority on the members regarding what is an allowed philosophy.

members are free to make appeals to top down authority if they choose to, members are free to comment about others members appeals to a top down authority if they choose to,
if being free to speak freely is a hardship to some, they are still free to and welcomed as fellow investors when they choose to stick to investing...
I82start,
The notion that there is a defined ideological criteria for who should and should not participate in this forum was a question for me arising from this thread, that you have now answered.
I have read three of Harry Browne's books and I do not personally believe that he was an opponent of diversity of opinion. I also do not infer from his writings that he would have been a proponent of the "either-you're-with-us-or-against-us" brand of populism. And you've now clarified that neither is this forum, at least with regard to participation.
Last edited by glennds on Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by glennds » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:12 am

vnatale wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:50 am



I was and still am attracted to the Permanent Portfolio strictly on the basis of its logic and that it has worked. Just a strict financial analysis. Zero political analysis attached to it.

Vinny
Same here Vinny. In my case I would simplify it further to say I was attracted to the Permanent Portfolio for the math.
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by SomeDude » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:30 am

I am a self admitted liberty extremist. People who only like like a some liberty are like a ham sandwich with some poo smeared on it trying to call it a moderate ham sandwich. Nope. Its a poo sandwich now.

"I like ham as much as anyone but i recognize the need for a poo smear and i am open to discussing how much poo with the alt ham extremists".

The reason the alt ham extremists won't discuss how much poo is the right amount is that they know poo isn't good on a sammy.
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by SomeDude » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:32 am

Maybe rather than discussing how much or what kind of poo is good on a sandwich we can discuss the current poo, its effects, how we eat around it, and the effects of different poo.

Quite frankly, if Beijing Biden gets in we'll all be eating a shit sandwich.
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:35 am

glennds wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:12 am
vnatale wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:50 am



I was and still am attracted to the Permanent Portfolio strictly on the basis of its logic and that it has worked. Just a strict financial analysis. Zero political analysis attached to it.

Vinny
Same here Vinny. In my case I would simplify it further to say I was attracted to the Permanent Portfolio for the math.
I can second that!

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by Maddy » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:57 am

pmward wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:36 am
But considering I see nothing in the name "gyroscopic investing" that hints that it's exclusive to libertarians, nor do I see anything from the mods here stating that this is a libertarian only forum, your hostility and attempt to make all non-libertarians feel unwelcome is silly. If the mods want this to be an libertarian echo chamber please speak now.
It's really not a question of whether this forum was established to have a libertarian focus or not. It is what it is, and what it is represents the sum total of what is brought here by the people who find it to have sufficient value to come here day after day.

What you're saying strikes me as quite like choosing to eat lunch at the jocks' table and complaining that they don't want to talk about Heidegger or Kant. And then threatening to go to the principal for affirmation that the table is not exclusively theirs.
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by pp4me » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:52 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:50 am
Anyone else who has also read it can correct me if I am wrong but there is NOTHING about politics in it aside from a healthy dose of not trusting governments to do the right thing.
Yes, HB advised not to let politics influence your investing and he clearly practiced what he preached.

As in, don't trust the government but keep 50% of your portfolio in government backed bonds.
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:21 pm

pp4me wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:52 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:50 am
Anyone else who has also read it can correct me if I am wrong but there is NOTHING about politics in it aside from a healthy dose of not trusting governments to do the right thing.
Yes, HB advised not to let politics influence your investing and he clearly practiced what he preached.

As in, don't trust the government but keep 50% of your portfolio in government backed bonds.
Just to be clear....what you quoted from me was my description of what was in Craig's and Tex's book, both of whom were in alignment and agreement with Harry Browne's view on investing and, especially, the Permanent Portfolio.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by Tortoise » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:46 pm

Those who recognize that prediction and active management of investments is an exercise in futility for most people (a central tenet of Harry Browne’s Permanent Portfolio) generally also recognize that active management of groups of human beings using government force usually does more harm than good (a central tenet of libertarianism).

The two are very closely related attitudes.
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:52 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:46 pm
Those who recognize that prediction and active management of investments is an exercise in futility for most people (a central tenet of Harry Browne’s Permanent Portfolio) generally also recognize that active management of groups of human beings using government force usually does more harm than good (a central tenet of libertarianism).

The two are very closely related attitudes.
I cannot agree with that.

I think it's more of a difference in ego.

Those who believe in active management believe that they are smarter than everyone else and, thus, have their ways of being "above average" which will lead to them being able to beat the market.

Those who believe in either index funds, mechanical investment plans, or the Permanent Portfolio have come to the realization that it is impossible to beat the market and that they need to invest in a low cost, clearly defined investment that involves few transactions.

Had absolutely nothing to do with political leanings.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by Tortoise » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:58 pm

I’m not claiming that one is the cause and the other is the effect, Vinny. I’m just saying the two attitudes (the financial one and the political one) are very highly correlated. Perfectly correlated? No. Highly correlated? Yes.

As an example, my observation has been that the forum members here who participate most often in the active management and financial prediction threads tend to also be the ones who lean non-libertarian.
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:28 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:58 pm
I’m not claiming that one is the cause and the other is the effect, Vinny. I’m just saying the two attitudes (the financial one and the political one) are very highly correlated. Perfectly correlated? No. Highly correlated? Yes.

As an example, my observation has been that the forum members here who participate most often in the active management and financial prediction threads tend to also be the ones who lean non-libertarian.
I'm not sure where you have me on the political spectrum but thanks to William Bernstein by the early 2000's I'd been brainwashed into believing you cannot beat the market, and that you need to come up with an overall investing allocation, doing it all in index funds only.

Took that to heart. Came up with my allocation. Implemented it in January 2003. Next month will be 18 years later. Other than using one of those initial investments to fund all charitable contributions since then (to save on capital gains taxes) I've not touched any of those initial investments. No additions. No subtractions. All new money for the last 18 years has gone into cash and not been deployed into anything else.

I effectively have a barbell approach. High risk on one end and low risk on the other.

By the time I finish my "excessively thorough" approach regarding the Permanent Portfolio and get all my questions answered plus fully document the nature of my all my different retirement accounts so I can collapse like to like, I will be going full classic Permanent Portfolio with no deviations.

From almost the start of my investing career I recognized I had no better ideas than anyone else so being mathematically oriented I'm always going to be drawn to a mechanical system which seems to have been proven and which tells me how I should invest, when to move the investments around among the prescribed investments.

That was a prime reason why I have done all cash since January 2003. What was my investing philosophy? What does the overall look like? How do I maintain it? As a result once I read about the Permanent Portfolio it had an instant attraction for me as it answered all those questions (and more).

Nothing at all to do with the way I view anything politically.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

Post by doodle » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:21 pm

As an example, my observation has been that the forum members here who participate most often in the active management and financial prediction threads tend to also be the ones who lean non-libertarian.
I am pretty much PP by the book with exception of buying in and out of a small portions of LT treasuries..yet I'm probably labled as authoritarian...so observation doesn't hold in my case.

Everyone who took any of those quizzes (for whatever they are worth) came back on the libertarian side so I think it's unfair to label anyone here as against liberty.

The question is to what degree...Tom thinks people should be able to build chemical warheads in their garage and weave apache helicopters loaded with cruise missiles through new york's sky scrapers. Mark and Tech think we should privatize our legal system and police force. That somehow it isn't a problem that Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk can have their own private judges and security forces that can arrest citizens and try them in their private courts.

Sorry, I don't see Harry Browne going along with any of those ideas. This forum harbors a special breed of extreme.
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