Black rock socially responsible investing

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Pointedstick
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Re: Black rock socially responsible investing

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:20 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:04 am
If companies and their shareholders can make more money being socially and ecologically responsible then why do we need government regulation at all?

It seems like a mutually exclusive ideology. If you believe we need government regulation then investing in socially responsible companies is done with the expectation of getting reduced return. Or if you think you can “beat the market” by investing in socially responsible companies then you should be against government regulation since the free market would realize all the excess profits to be has by “doing the right thing”
Vanguard's ESG fund is a purely private sector market-based affair so I'm not sure what kind of government regulation you're referring to.

But this very thread is an example of how prejudice and ideology get in the way of the kind of neutral and rational profit-maximizing that you believe will happen organically. ESG funds have consistently beaten the broad market for years, yet this thread is full of unsupported opinions about them which are completely disconnected from reality. They are assumed to lag the broad market when the opposite is true. They are assumed to have some connection to government regulations and mandates yet their emergence is a 100% private, market-based happenstance. And so on.

Believers in the utility and morality of a free market economic system should seek out sources of information that are as clear and factual as possible, and always be open to new information. Without this the price and information signal mechanisms of the market don't actually work for them.
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Re: Black rock socially responsible investing

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:38 am

Passages found in that article:
– Governance: Who is really in charge? What are the facts of the UFO phenomenon? Who has the most powerful weaponry and military presence? Is there a “breakaway civilization”?
– Mind control: How do we protect our minds and maps of reality from mind control so we can have an intelligent conversation about governance and the environment?
– Smart grid: "Smart technology" is often proposed as a solution. However, this technology allows AI to access every aspect of our life, delivers more corporate control, and facilitates invasive mind control. Is more central control really a solution or is it the problem?
9. Invisible weaponry and technology:
– What is the state of our invisible weaponry and technology, and how does it relate to our weather, climate, and natural disasters?
– What are CERN and the other colliders, and how do they impact our magnetic core and natural and living systems?
To me the author of this article comes off as having a tenuous grip on reality.
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Re: Black rock socially responsible investing

Post by pugchief » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:37 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:20 am
tomfoolery wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:04 am
If companies and their shareholders can make more money being socially and ecologically responsible then why do we need government regulation at all?

It seems like a mutually exclusive ideology. If you believe we need government regulation then investing in socially responsible companies is done with the expectation of getting reduced return. Or if you think you can “beat the market” by investing in socially responsible companies then you should be against government regulation since the free market would realize all the excess profits to be has by “doing the right thing”
Vanguard's ESG fund is a purely private sector market-based affair so I'm not sure what kind of government regulation you're referring to.

But this very thread is an example of how prejudice and ideology get in the way of the kind of neutral and rational profit-maximizing that you believe will happen organically. ESG funds have consistently beaten the broad market for years, yet this thread is full of unsupported opinions about them which are completely disconnected from reality. They are assumed to lag the broad market when the opposite is true. They are assumed to have some connection to government regulations and mandates yet their emergence is a 100% private, market-based happenstance. And so on.

Believers in the utility and morality of a free market economic system should seek out sources of information that are as clear and factual as possible, and always be open to new information. Without this the price and information signal mechanisms of the market don't actually work for them.
Maybe. But I personally have taken such an extreme negative view of constantly having left wing virtue signally shoved in my face that I actively avoid purchasing products from companies that do that, whenever possible. For instance, I will never again purchase anything made by Nike after their support of Colin Kaepernick.
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Re: Black rock socially responsible investing

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:51 am

pugchief wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:37 am
Maybe. But I personally have taken such an extreme negative view of constantly having left wing virtue signally shoved in my face that I actively avoid purchasing products from companies that do that, whenever possible. For instance, I will never again purchase anything made by Nike after their support of Colin Kaepernick.
Yes, this is another great example of what I mentioned earlier. :)

The left and their virtue signaling can be insufferable. However if you let this manipulate you into abandoning genuine virtue, you play right into their hands, because then you come to see virtue itself as bad and they can credibly claim you're a selfish jerk. It's possible to be upset over their sanctimony without ceding the moral high ground to them.

Regarding Nike, it's funny because on the left they are reviled for their support of overseas child labor sweatshops. What's a poor little global multibillion dollar corporation to do? ;D
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Re: Black rock socially responsible investing

Post by Smith1776 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:54 am

Larry Swedroe wrote a great piece on ESG/SRI funds a while back. Long story short is that it's not just a marketing gimmick. If these types of funds gather a fairly significant amount of AUM it will bid up prices of these more socially responsible companies. This means that the cost of capital for those companies is lower, and therefore your investment has a direct impact on their growth potential and market viability. Companies that are broadly not included in such indices will have higher costs of capital, and will therefore be less viable by definition.

You do, however, give up some expected return when investing in ESG/SRI funds.
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Re: Black rock socially responsible investing

Post by pugchief » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:32 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:51 am
pugchief wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:37 am
Maybe. But I personally have taken such an extreme negative view of constantly having left wing virtue signally shoved in my face that I actively avoid purchasing products from companies that do that, whenever possible. For instance, I will never again purchase anything made by Nike after their support of Colin Kaepernick.
Yes, this is another great example of what I mentioned earlier. :)

The left and their virtue signaling can be insufferable. However if you let this manipulate you into abandoning genuine virtue, you play right into their hands, because then you come to see virtue itself as bad and they can credibly claim you're a selfish jerk. It's possible to be upset over their sanctimony without ceding the moral high ground to them.
Your definition of virtue and mine don't have to be the same necessarily.
Pointedstick wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:51 am
Regarding Nike, it's funny because on the left they are reviled for their support of overseas child labor sweatshops. What's a poor little global multibillion dollar corporation to do? ;D
I guess Black Lives Matter more than Asian children's lives according to Nike. :P
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Re: Black rock socially responsible investing

Post by tomfoolery » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:52 pm

pugchief wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:32 pm
Pointedstick wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:51 am
Regarding Nike, it's funny because on the left they are reviled for their support of overseas child labor sweatshops. What's a poor little global multibillion dollar corporation to do? ;D
I guess Black Lives Matter more than Asian children's lives according to Nike. :P
There’s a complex algorithm involved in the victim Olympics. The driving factor currently is how likely the group is to set fire to your house.
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Re: Black rock socially responsible investing

Post by Ad Orientem » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:03 pm

I want to start an ETF for the unloved sectors...

* Alcohol Industry
* Tobacco
* Marijuana
* Coal and Oil
* Gambling Casinos
* Porn Industry
* Arms and Weapons Manufacturers
* Yachts and Private Planes for Billionaires

Ticker symbol... VICE

Edit: Never mind. It looks like that ticker is already taken.
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Re: Black rock socially responsible investing

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:11 pm

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Re: Black rock socially responsible investing

Post by doodle » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:03 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:52 pm
pugchief wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:32 pm
Pointedstick wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:51 am
Regarding Nike, it's funny because on the left they are reviled for their support of overseas child labor sweatshops. What's a poor little global multibillion dollar corporation to do? ;D
I guess Black Lives Matter more than Asian children's lives according to Nike. :P
There’s a complex algorithm involved in the victim Olympics. The driving factor currently is how likely the group is to set fire to your house.
...or the house you want but can't have because you too are a victim.
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Re: Black rock socially responsible investing

Post by doodle » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:56 pm

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Re: Black rock socially responsible investing

Post by AllWeatherPP » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:38 pm

pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:09 pm
pugchief wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:15 pm
Social justice investing will draw interest until it sorely lags the S&P 500, which it ultimately will. And then only idiots will invest that way. ::)

It's like the restaurant that told customers to pay whatever they wanted, and then went bankrupt in 6 months because they weren't profitable. :o
Sure the direct ESG funds will likely underperform. But the index funds... the thing they are getting at is an index fund doesn't have to 100% match the index to follow it almost identically. Almost no index funds are perfectly weighted to their index. They can reduce weight on a non "responsible" company a bit and give that weight to a more "responsible" competitor and still track the index, since companies in the same sectors are highly correlated. This means the funds themselves continue to track their benchmarks within the usual small margin of error, however they have created an environment where companies that are more "responsible" get more capital than competitors that are not "responsible", which encourages companies to make changes. It's capitalism doing exactly what it should do. Those that don't like it have the option to not invest in Blackrock ETF's.
@pmward I really like your posts in this thread and share your point of view.
But is it really true that Blackrock does that, giving more weight to "responsible" companies in their indexes?
A source would be great!
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