Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by Ad Orientem » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:33 pm

IMO Donald Trump's campaign of lies and attempts to subvert the national election, and undermining the legitimacy of the incoming administration, even to the point of soliciting public officials to overthrow the election, have reached the point where I believe that on leaving office, he should be indicted on charges of sedition. His conduct unquestionably meets the common law definition for the crime though I am uncertain of the exact wording of the applicable sections of Title 18 of the US Code.
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by SomeDude » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:06 pm

Should all witnesses signing sworn statements under threat of perjury that they were witnesses to the fraud be charged also?
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by SomeDude » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:07 pm

Should the governors and legislators calling for recounts or audits or non cert of the votes be charged with sedition?
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by Ad Orientem » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:09 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:06 pm
Should all witnesses signing sworn statements under threat of perjury that they were witnesses to the fraud be charged also?

Each case would need to examined on their individual merits. Some may simply have been mistaken in their beliefs Others however have been exposed as liars. And yes they should be charged with perjury and possibly seditious conspiracy.
Last edited by Ad Orientem on Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by Ad Orientem » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:09 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:07 pm
Should the governors and legislators calling for recounts or audits or non cert of the votes be charged with sedition?
Yes.

Not since 1860 has there been such an overt attack on the legitimacy of the United States Government.
Last edited by Ad Orientem on Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by SomeDude » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:16 pm

Well Ad O. I'll give you credit for taking a position on it, that's for sure. You seem convinced the election was fairly executed. I do not know how that is possible but i give you credit for making some confident statements.

I agree that sedition should not be tolerated against the constitution.
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by Mark Leavy » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:48 pm

Much respect Ad.

I like a man with opinions.
glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by glennds » Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:31 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:48 pm

I like a man with opinions.
Then you will never want for friends.
senecaaa
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:33 am

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by senecaaa » Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:13 am

You have no idea how sad all this looks from across the pond...
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by SomeDude » Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:25 am

senecaaa wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:13 am
You have no idea how sad all this looks from across the pond...
Senacaaa your PM looks like homeless guy with schizophrenia. I think i saw his cousin shuffling through the streets of st Petersburg Florida last weekend.

Seriously i look at the covid craziness you guys are going through and i wonder if the English will ever regain their old moxy. It feels life you left us alone on the world stage.

When are you going to elect Mr. Farage???
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by doodle » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:09 am

senecaaa wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:13 am
You have no idea how sad all this looks from across the pond...
It's just because you guys don't understand their logic.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NzDhm808oU4
glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by glennds » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:16 am

SomeDude wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:25 am


Seriously i look at the covid craziness you guys are going through and i wonder if the English will ever regain their old moxy. It feels life you left us alone on the world stage.

When are you going to elect Mr. Farage???
That's like asking when will the final nail be hammered into your coffin?
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by SomeDude » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:29 am

glennds wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:16 am
SomeDude wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:25 am


Seriously i look at the covid craziness you guys are going through and i wonder if the English will ever regain their old moxy. It feels life you left us alone on the world stage.

When are you going to elect Mr. Farage???
That's like asking when will the final nail be hammered into your coffin?
Glennds it's like a monty python skit at this point
Attachments
AFP_8UN3QY.jpg
AFP_8UN3QY.jpg (26.31 KiB) Viewed 4823 times
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by sophie » Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:15 am

Given the attempts to impeach Trump while in office, I rather expect all kinds of legal action against him after he leaves. He'll almost certainly protect himself and his family to the extent he can before signing out.

If Trump is genuinely just making up stuff to try to block the transition, then you might have a case. But, I think he genuinely believes he has cause, so that wouldn't qualify as sedition. And I think it would be an exceptionally high bar to prove that there was no election fraud - for similar, just opposite reasons to Trump's team having difficulty establishing that the fraud was widespread enough to alter the election outcome.

I expect most cases and the press's vitriole against him simply boil down to the fact that he was not the "approved" candidate in 2016 and therefore had no business being elected. What the voters wanted was beside the point. What was supposed to happen in 2016 was Jeb Bush as the Republican candidate, and Hillary Clinton winning the election. Any other outcome would be considered illegitimate. Think about that, then think about the acceptance vs not of the 2020 election outcome. Who is being seditious?
pp4me
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1190
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:12 pm

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by pp4me » Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:16 pm

I'd be okay with that but I'd want the the trial to be televised for all to see and in a state outside of D.C. (aka the swamp). Present all the evidence on both sides and let the chips fall where they may. My guess is it would end in a hung jury and be a waste of time but it would be great entertainment. Trump might even enjoy it as a last hurrah.

Could also end in an indictment for Joe Biden and/or associates which is the reason it's probably not going to happen.

Hard to imagine any president being too keen on the idea of prosecuting their predecessor for crimes committed in office. If Joe Biden really is "the big guy" in the Hunter Biden story I think that would be especially true for him.
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by Ad Orientem » Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:00 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:25 am
senecaaa wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:13 am
You have no idea how sad all this looks from across the pond...
Senacaaa your PM looks like homeless guy with schizophrenia. I think i saw his cousin shuffling through the streets of st Petersburg Florida last weekend.

Seriously i look at the covid craziness you guys are going through and i wonder if the English will ever regain their old moxy. It feels life you left us alone on the world stage.

When are you going to elect Mr. Farage???

I think Americans should take a deep breath before criticizing other countries for their Covid response. We have 4% of the world's population and 25% of its fatalities. Our president has been AWOL during this crisis more or less from day one and on those rare occasions when giving advice or making comments, they have been overwhelmingly wrong and/or counterproductive. Since election day he seems to have gone into a giant sulk and has attended to almost none of the business of his office. The only meetings he is attending are those related to his attempts to overthrow the US Constitution and our system of free elections.
Last edited by Ad Orientem on Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by SomeDude » Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:15 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:00 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:25 am
senecaaa wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:13 am
You have no idea how sad all this looks from across the pond...
Senacaaa your PM looks like homeless guy with schizophrenia. I think i saw his cousin shuffling through the streets of st Petersburg Florida last weekend.

Seriously i look at the covid craziness you guys are going through and i wonder if the English will ever regain their old moxy. It feels life you left us alone on the world stage.

When are you going to elect Mr. Farage???

I think Americans should take a deep breath before criticizing other countries for their Covid response. We have 4% of the world's population and 25% of its fatalities.
You have a point if:

1. You believe the reported "Covid related" deaths here and in other countries is accurate.

2. You discount the fact we a much higher percentage of the world's elderly population, which is the only population really at risk from the flu.

3. Your value set is such that preventing anyone from getting the flu is worth destroying everyone's lives, including the elderly who would rather die than be isolated, stunting our children by keeping them out of school, bankrupting millions, sending them into poverty and despair, increasing suicide and drug use exponentially, and destroying marriages.

4. You think giving up any semblance of rights which we will never get back are worth preventing some elderly from getting the flu. Basically you believe people do not have God given rights.

5. Even though theres no evidence these measures are preventing people from getting the flu, it still makes sense.


Yes i criticize the UK governments anti-flu regulations as even more horrible than the the US governments.
pp4me
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1190
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:12 pm

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by pp4me » Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:54 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:00 pm
Our president has been AWOL during this crisis more or less from day one and on those rare occasions when giving advice or making comments, they have been overwhelmingly wrong and/or counterproductive. Since election day he seems to have gone into a giant sulk and has attended to almost none of the business of his office. The only meetings he is attending are those related to his attempts to overthrow the US Constitution and our system of free elections.
Given the way you feel about Donald Trump could you actually say that it would be wrong to commit voter fraud to keep him from winning the election? Can you give us an honest answer to that question?

If I believed the ads that were being run by Biden in the last few weeks running up to the election I would do it myself. I saw ads comparing him to Hitler, showing Nazis, white supremacy rallies and even Ku Klux Klansman burning crosses. The most impressive of all was the one where a mother woke up her young son because he wanted her to tell him who won the election. She has to break the bad news that Trump won while outside you can hear people chanting "four more years". The son says he thought the president could only have two terms so the mother has to tearfully inform him "not any more". In other words his Hitlerian transformation is now complete and he's become the dictator of Nazi America.

This is the point Scott Adams has been making in his youtubes. There may not, and probably won't be evidence found sufficient to prove widespread voter fraud but he says we can be sure it happened any way for two reasons - motive and opportunity. The motive is exactly what I described above and it has been in the form of psychological warfare employed from the very beginning when Trump took office.

I think some level of psychological warfare has always been involved with politics as it's just the nature of the games dishonest, power hungry people, aka politicians, are capable of playing. Now that we have cable TV and social media it can be played out on a much larger scale than we've ever seen it before.
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by SomeDude » Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:32 pm

pp4me wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:54 pm
Ad Orientem wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:00 pm
Our president has been AWOL during this crisis more or less from day one and on those rare occasions when giving advice or making comments, they have been overwhelmingly wrong and/or counterproductive. Since election day he seems to have gone into a giant sulk and has attended to almost none of the business of his office. The only meetings he is attending are those related to his attempts to overthrow the US Constitution and our system of free elections.
Given the way you feel about Donald Trump could you actually say that it would be wrong to commit voter fraud to keep him from winning the election? Can you give us an honest answer to that question?
This is a great question. Without a doubt millions of people fell for this trick of the media that orangemanbad and since they are lefties they are multiples more likely to believe the ends justify the means. That is the basic premise behind nearly everything they push for.

Getting Republicans or conservatives to take part in a seditious scheme to overturn a legit election seems like a crazy conspiracy theory to me given the nature of such people. Far more likely to get lefties to engage in fraud, organized or not.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by doodle » Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:06 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:32 pm
pp4me wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:54 pm
Ad Orientem wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:00 pm
Our president has been AWOL during this crisis more or less from day one and on those rare occasions when giving advice or making comments, they have been overwhelmingly wrong and/or counterproductive. Since election day he seems to have gone into a giant sulk and has attended to almost none of the business of his office. The only meetings he is attending are those related to his attempts to overthrow the US Constitution and our system of free elections.
Given the way you feel about Donald Trump could you actually say that it would be wrong to commit voter fraud to keep him from winning the election? Can you give us an honest answer to that question?
This is a great question. Without a doubt millions of people fell for this trick of the media that orangemanbad and since they are lefties they are multiples more likely to believe the ends justify the means. That is the basic premise behind nearly everything they push for.

Getting Republicans or conservatives to take part in a seditious scheme to overturn a legit election seems like a crazy conspiracy theory to me given the nature of such people. Far more likely to get lefties to engage in fraud, organized or not.
All the evidence at this point would suggest the opposite. But I guess when the Trump appointed judges, republican governors, and attorney general are all lefties then I guess you have no choice but to do the right thing and undertake a coup in the name of Donald Trump.
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by sophie » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:17 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:00 pm
Our president has been AWOL during this crisis more or less from day one
This is so breathtakingly inaccurate I don't even know what to say.

Tech would call this "TDS Stage 4", but that's being polite. Given your obvious intelligence and ability to read and understand spoken English, I can only conclude that this is a willful misrepresentation.
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by SomeDude » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:23 pm

sophie wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:17 am
Ad Orientem wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:00 pm
Our president has been AWOL during this crisis more or less from day one
This is so breathtakingly inaccurate I don't even know what to say.

Tech would call this "TDS Stage 4", but that's being polite. Given your obvious intelligence and ability to read and understand spoken English, I can only conclude that this is a willful misrepresentation.
As I've said before, it's very hard to distinguish stage4 TDS and trolling. I will give most everyone the benefit of the doubt and call it TDS unless they troll on non trump issues.
User avatar
Tortoise
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2751
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:35 am

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by Tortoise » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:12 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:23 pm
sophie wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:17 am
Ad Orientem wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:00 pm
Our president has been AWOL during this crisis more or less from day one
This is so breathtakingly inaccurate I don't even know what to say.

Tech would call this "TDS Stage 4", but that's being polite. Given your obvious intelligence and ability to read and understand spoken English, I can only conclude that this is a willful misrepresentation.
As I've said before, it's very hard to distinguish stage4 TDS and trolling. I will give most everyone the benefit of the doubt and call it TDS unless they troll on non trump issues.
I think you guys are underestimating the power of persuasion and confirmation bias, even on very intelligent people.

I've long considered something like the triune brain model to be fairly useful in understanding how people think and behave. For the most part, we arrive at decisions and beliefs based on instinct and emotion, which are controlled by the "lower" parts of the brain, and the "higher" part of our brain -- the neocortex -- is largely a storytelling and rationalization engine layered on top of the lower brain that we use to convince ourselves that what the lower brain chooses and believes is right.

It's an oversimplification since sometimes the neocortex can actually take control and change our decisions and beliefs. But that seems to be the exception rather than the rule in most people.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by vnatale » Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:33 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:12 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:23 pm
sophie wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:17 am
Ad Orientem wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:00 pm
Our president has been AWOL during this crisis more or less from day one
This is so breathtakingly inaccurate I don't even know what to say.

Tech would call this "TDS Stage 4", but that's being polite. Given your obvious intelligence and ability to read and understand spoken English, I can only conclude that this is a willful misrepresentation.
As I've said before, it's very hard to distinguish stage4 TDS and trolling. I will give most everyone the benefit of the doubt and call it TDS unless they troll on non trump issues.
I think you guys are underestimating the power of persuasion and confirmation bias, even on very intelligent people.

I've long considered something like the triune brain model to be fairly useful in understanding how people think and behave. For the most part, we arrive at decisions and beliefs based on instinct and emotion, which are controlled by the "lower" parts of the brain, and the "higher" part of our brain -- the neocortex -- is largely a storytelling and rationalization engine layered on top of the lower brain that we use to convince ourselves that what the lower brain chooses and believes is right.

It's an oversimplification since sometimes the neocortex can actually take control and change our decisions and beliefs. But that seems to be the exception rather than the rule in most people.
I believe all of what you state is definitely the truth, as much as we might not want to admit it even applies to ourselves.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
pmward
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: Should Donald Trump Be Charged With Sedition?

Post by pmward » Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:42 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:32 pm
Getting Republicans or conservatives to take part in a seditious scheme to overturn a legit election seems like a crazy conspiracy theory to me given the nature of such people. Far more likely to get lefties to engage in fraud, organized or not.
Might I bring Nixon to your attention... the only politician in U.S. history to be actually proven guilty of such was a "conservative". Your painting of conservatives as angels and liberals as devils is no different from what the liberal media does with "orangemanbad". It's propaganda and nothing more. If there actually was fraud, I highly doubt it was only one way. One would have to be truly gullible to 100% trust any politician, especially Trump. Why is he only challenging policies in counties that went for Biden, even though those same policies were in place in counties that went for Trump? Why are certain policies ok in counties that voted for Trump, but not ok in counties that voted for Biden?
Post Reply