Election Fraud and path forward

pmward
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

Post by pmward »

Tortoise wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:49 pm Why do I keep seeing forum members claim that this is all about the cult of Trump? It's bigger than that.

I voted for Trump in this election, but to me this unconstitutional (and likely also fraudulent) election is much bigger than Trump or Biden.

I don't think four years of a Biden presidency would destroy the republic. We've had plenty of shitty presidents over the years, and our republic has managed to survive. It can survive Biden and Harris, too.

But this seems to be the first time we've seen potential election fraud on such a large scale, due in large part to the unconstitutional introduction of universal mail-in ballots and election rule changes in key swing states. Those states bypassed their legislatures and thus clearly violated the U.S. Constitution. (Hopefully SCOTUS recognizes that.)

If we fail to uphold the Constitution in this case, it endangers our republic by removing even more teeth from its foundational document.

And if fraud also rigged the election, and we don't fully investigate to flush out the rot, it will continue to spread with a vengeance. It will embolden those who committed the fraud, and they will commit even more of it in future elections. That will also endanger our republic -- far more than four years of one crappy president ever could.
No it was not unconstitutional. Many states, including here in AZ, have had mail in voting for years. AZ has been a tried and true Republican state through all those years, even with mail in voting. We've already discussed at length the reasons why AZ flipped blue, so I won't go back into that again... suffice to say "the times they are a' changin'" here in AZ.

You can read this thread here where we dissect a judges commentary on the subject of a state "violating it's own laws" for mail in voting in PA. I highly recommend you read the actual legal document Tech posted, as in it the judge specifically mentions that to throw out all mail in votes because of this violation would effectively be taking away the right to vote of millions of PA residents. Also glenn posted the actual ruling, which came down later in the day and ruled against Trump. I think these credible sources refute all of your claims on mail in voting: https://www.gyroscopicinvesting.com/for ... 15&t=11567
Last edited by pmward on Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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SomeDude wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:04 pm
Tortoise wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:49 pm Why do I keep seeing forum members claim that this is all about the cult of Trump? It's bigger than that.
Because they have no evidence Biden is the most popular political figure in history, especially in some of the key swing states. Literally no evidence.

Also, stage 4 TDS.

I have to disagree on one point my reptilian friend. The Republic probably cannot survive Harris-biden. This is not just "a crappy president". This is a criminal conspiracy to take over the US government by gangsters, many of which are probably international. I think Tech pointed out, they will change the rules so they never lose again.

If they won by fraud, who is going to prevent fraud in the future? Communists do not like to compete for votes or the consent of their slaves.

This is deadly serious business. I promise you that smiling old man is controlled by people plotting lots of death and destruction around the world. Trump was a peacemaker and that is something they couldn't tolerate any more.
Wow... just wow... somebody drank the Kool-Aide...
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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I am halfway through this book:

Down & Dirty: The Plot to Steal the Presidency

https://www.amazon.com/Down-Dirty-Plot- ... 225&sr=8-4


It is all about the 2000 election. If you are further interested in it I highly recommend you buying the Kindle version for only $2.99.

I followed that election quite closely on a day-by-day and hour-by-hour basis as events were occurring.

In both this topic (and others) there have been all kinds of allegations about what has gone with the 2020 election.

As I've been reading the book I've been highlighting certain short portions of it to put them here so that all can see the real party machinations that go on in an election! I'm also sue that you will be able to make many parallels between this year's election and that one from 20 years ago.

Vinny

1)

“Daley isn’t into all these ‘irregularity’ things,” Streett says, referring to the arguments many in the Gore camp want to make about the reports—all merely anecdotal, at this point—they’ve heard about, say, blacks being stopped at polls, harassed, and intimidated by cops. “He thinks we should be cautious talking about the irregularities.”

Streett’s right. Daley’s been around politics since birth, so he knows a few hard and fast facts about this kind of thing, and it’s made him pessimistic about it all. First off, Daley thinks, it’s very, very rare that an election is turned over unless it’s because of some bizarre accident or mistake, some number that was recorded incorrectly, some ballots that an angry elections judge took home. That kind of thing is usually sorted out within twenty-four hours. But barring some legitimate explanation like that, the longer it goes—whether it’s a race for state rep or mosquito abatement district, it is very tough to turn an election over. The system is set up that way. Then there’s the matter of all these rumors. Not that Daley is flip about it, but every election has allegations of roadblocks and people being arrested and yada yada yada. This stuff won’t play in Peoria.

2)

On Larry King Live that night, LePore sees Democrat Wexler and Republican Foley square off against one another. Ironically, even though a former Foley staffer ran against her in 1996, Foley’s the one defending her today.

“If there was confusion,… the Democrats should have objected before this sample ballot was printed and published and distributed,” Foley says.

“Good point,” King says. “Congressman Wexler, you signed off on it.” “Well, that’s not exactly so, Larry,” Wexler says. “Many people did complain to the supervisor of elections when they saw the sample ballot.”

That’s not true! LePore thinks. In October, LePore mailed out 655,000 sample ballots. Even before the sample ballots had gone out, she’d sent them to all 150-some candidates, faxed and mailed them to Friedkin and Friedkin’s counterpart at the Republican Executive Committee of Palm Beach County. The Palm Beach Post and the Sun-Sentinel printed copies in their papers. And not one complaint. Not one! Not a peep! What the hell was Wexler talking about?!

“… the Palm Beach County supervisor herself, Larry, yesterday, sent out an urgent message to poll workers late in the afternoon, which I’ve never seen done, which said, ‘Advise the people how to vote, because there’s mass confusion,’” Wexler goes on.

“Ah, OK,” says King.

“Ah, OK”?! LePore thinks. Wexler was the one to request that “urgent message”! And now he’s citing it as evidence that there was something wrong with the ballot?! Acting like he had nothing to do with it, this whole “which I’ve never seen done” thing?! What a liar!

Maybe I was naive to call him a friend, she thinks.

3)

In any other business, liars are called liars. There are penalties for perjury in the law, fines for inaccurate claims in advertising, libel laws against journalists and publishers. But many political spokespeople take to lies like mutts to kibble, knowing that their bosses are rarely held accountable for such lies. Politics, of course, by necessity utilizes spin, obfuscation, and a degree of hyperbole. But lines can still be crossed—when speakers say things for political purposes that are just plain false, whether aware that the matters were not true or simply indifferent to what the truth is. And the media rarely calls them on it. Democrats and Republicans both know this and exploit it in desperate circumstances. Perhaps because Gore already had a reputation for misleading voters and overstating his record, the Bush people got away with it much more. So by November 9, they’re emboldened to say whatever the hell they want to.

4)

And yes because as governor, Bush would joke with Texas state representative Rick Green, Republican of Dripping Springs, about his slim 1998 victory over the incumbent Democrat. Green lost on Election Night by 20 votes, but in his call for a hand recount—which went ahead because of the law Bush signed in 1997—he ended up winning by 36. Bush got quite a kick out of that, calling him “Landslide” Green. And yes because New Mexico Republican National Committee chair Mickey Barnett is setting the stage for a possible recount in his state, where Gore’s margin of victory was rather slim. And yes because Bush and his team had no problem with the hand recounts that went on in some Republican-leaning Florida counties the day after the election, where he picked up votes. And yes because the Bushies are contemplating hand recounts in Oregon and Wisconsin and Iowa and New Mexico. And yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. But Bush and his team don’t care; they almost never do. Quite unlike the Gorebies, who shiver at the slightest negative clause in a New York Times op-ed.

I’m not quite sure which attribute is worse. But I’m pretty sure I know which is the one employed by the winners in political warfare.

5)

In a way, it’s just annoying, Lee thinks. He has no doubt in mind that if the current skirmish he’s been drawn into were reversed, those exact same parties would be making—with the exact same vigor and vehemence—the exact opposite arguments. Democrats would be saying that the Republicans were inventing votes; Republicans would be arguing that county canvassing boards have the discretion to do whatever they see fit. It’s all kind of tiresome, he thinks.

6)

“I see it all across the state,” Sancho will later say to me.“Each side is simply trying to achieve its ends, uncover votes it believes will be favorable and suppress votes it believes will be unfavorable.” In the process, neither party is doing much to elevate the dignity of this process much above your average Panama City wet T-shirt contest.

7)

Gore also suggests that he and Bush meet “personally, one on one, as soon as possible… to improve the tone of our dialogue in America.”

A few hours later, Bush goes on TV to respond. To the recount proposal—No. To the offer to meet personally to improve the tone of our dialogue in America, that would be—No.

Just as Gore seems to ooze insincerity, Bush seems nervous, twitchy, in hopelessly over his head. Neither of these guys’ public appearances seems to do much to reassure anyone; in fact, they explain why this was a tie.

“As we work to conclude this election, we should be guided by three principles: this process must be fair, this process must be accurate, and this process must be final,” Bush says. Fairness means no more counting. Accuracy means that hand counts can’t be used. Final means Friday at midnight, when the overseas absentee ballots are due. He also offers the obligatory whack at hand recounts. “As Americans have watched on television, they have seen for themselves that manual counting, with individuals making subjective decisions about voter intent, introduces human error and politics into the vote-counting process.”

Throughout the election, Gore got called on his various fibs and demagogueries, as he should have. Some of the things he said were outrageous—hinting that there was something benignly racist about Bill Bradley’s health-care proposal immediately comes to mind. But Bush seems to get away with his rank hypocrisies. I have no idea why. How can he keep slamming the very notion of hand recounts when Texas has one of the most liberal hand-recount laws in the nation, thanks in no small part to him?

8)

They had tried. On Thursday and Friday in Palm Beach, Eskew’s complaints weren’t finding many takers among the reporters who were there, who saw that absent a few minor incidents of human error—all corrected—there wasn’t much to gripe about. Everything was pretty orderly. So Eskew passed off his charges to Tallahassee, and a new Big Lie begins, and the campaign the otherwise respectable Racicot begins to aggressively wage here on behalf of the Bush team henceforth consists of nothing short of a goulash of truth, lies, and innuendo—most offensively against the judiciary—and served to the American people with a sprinkle of concocted moral outrage.

9)

Anyone who sees the process knows that it is organized, and highly supervised, with bureaucrats and county workers slaving away, trying to do the right thing while under the watchful eyes of the media as well as political operatives from both sides. But the Bush team doesn’t want America to know this. Harping on the changing standards alone isn’t doing the trick, so they begin alleging fraud and corruption.

“I think when the American people learn about these things, they’re going to ask themselves, ‘What in the name of God is going on here?’”

One might say the same thing about Racicot’s press conference. It’s a pretty shameless episode in an otherwise respectable career.

10)

If two men lie, one stuttering, the other smooth and smiling, it is human nature to disbelieve the stutterer and trust the man with the confident grin. And right now, the Bush team is smiling.

11)

What exactly could the legislature do?

Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution states that each state may select its presidential electors “in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct.” So it is not unforeseeable that the state legislature would take matters into its own hands and choose the state’s 25 electors, especially if the election results remain subject to legal attack up until the deadline for selecting electors in December. What Baker doesn’t have to add is that the legislature is controlled by the Republican Party. We’re going to get Florida’s electoral college votes, Baker’s threatening, whether by stopping the recount or calling in favors.

12)

“All of this is unfair and unacceptable,” Baker says. “It is not fair to change the election laws of Florida by judicial fiat after the election has been held. It is not fair to change the rules and standards governing the counting or recounting of votes after it appears that one side has concluded that is the only way to get the votes it needs. It is simply not fair, ladies and gentlemen, to change the rules either in the middle of the game, or after the game has been played.”

It’s a litany of whining that only a Texan could make sound intimidating. When the Connecticut-born Bush tries it tomorrow—“Make no mistake, the court rewrote the laws. It changed the rules, and it did so after the election was over”—he doesn’t quite pull it off with same machismo. And how could he? After all, it’s daddy’s friend who’s running the show down there, bailing him out, just as it’s been for W. all his life.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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pmward wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:04 pm the judge specifically mentions that to throw out all mail in votes because of this violation would effectively be taking away the right to vote of millions of PA residents.
If the state didn't have the legal right to offer the universal mail-in ballots in the first place, then there's nothing to "take away" since they never legally had them. If you break into my house and steal my computer, and I subsequently demand that you give it back to me, are you justified in claiming that I'm "taking away" your computer?

Also, by violating its own election laws, the state effectively "took away" (or at least significantly diluted) the votes of a different set of millions of PA residents.

Either way -- whether the current result stands or it's changed to uphold election law -- millions of PA residents will have had their votes screwed with. The difference is that changing the result to be consistent with election law is ethically the right thing to do.
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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vnatale wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:10 pm But Bush and his team don’t care; they almost never do. Quite unlike the Gorebies, who shiver at the slightest negative clause in a New York Times op-ed.
This is the same thing today. Biden and his team don't care. They don't appear to have a worry in the world. They aren't out playing defense. They aren't out on social media making claims. To them it's just business as usual. But every article, statement, and ruling that goes against Trump immediately gets Trump's response, just like Barr's did today. Just like "the Gorebies" did in 2000. Why is that?
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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Tortoise wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:21 pm
pmward wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:04 pm the judge specifically mentions that to throw out all mail in votes because of this violation would effectively be taking away the right to vote of millions of PA residents.
If the state didn't have the legal right to offer the universal mail-in ballots in the first place, then there's nothing to "take away" since they never legally had them. If you break into my house and steal my computer, and I subsequently demand that you give it back to me, are you justified in claiming that I'm "taking away" your computer?

Also, by violating its own election laws, the state effectively "took away" (or at least significantly diluted) the votes of a different set of millions of PA residents.

Either way -- whether the current result stands or it's changed to uphold election law -- millions of PA residents will have had their votes screwed with. The difference is that changing the result to be consistent with election law is ethically the right thing to do.
Go read the ruling. There was no law broken. Once again, go read the actual source material as it refutes your argument.

And no, even if the state did go around one of its own rules it does not mean those votes get thrown out. That punishes the voters, not the state. There is no way they would throw the votes out, even if they had ruled in Trump's favor. The only votes that would get thrown out are "fraudulent" votes, but once again as the Judge states in the source material there are no fraud allegations filed.
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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pmward wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:22 pm Biden and his team don't care. They don't appear to have a worry in the world. They aren't out playing defense. They aren't out on social media making claims. To them it's just business as usual.
That's because it's not necessary; they have the entire MSM effectively playing defense for them.
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

Post by pmward »

Tortoise wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:26 pm
pmward wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:22 pm Biden and his team don't care. They don't appear to have a worry in the world. They aren't out playing defense. They aren't out on social media making claims. To them it's just business as usual.
That's because it's not necessary; they have the entire MSM effectively playing defense for them.
@Tortoise see below:
Ad Orientem wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:34 pm
It appears that what you are proposing, is the existence of a national/global conspiracy to deprive Trump of reelection that must at this point include most election officials in the states Trump is complaining about, including both Democrats and Republicans, the entirety of the judiciary at both the state and Federal level again including judges from both parties, some of whom were appointed by Trump, the Department of Justice, the FBI and Donald Trump's own Attorney General, in Georgia pretty much the entire state election apparatus, which is overseen by Republicans including a GOP governor and secretary of state, and every single reliable news outlet in this country and globally.

It's time to be blunt here. Either you actually believe this drivel, or you are some some sort of provocateur / internet troll. Assuming the former, then all that can be said is that your beliefs are so far outside the bounds of factual evidence and reason that debating with you has become the political equivalent to arguing whether the Earth is round or flat. And clearly there is no argument or evidence that will persuade you that the world is in fact, round. If the latter then that sort of speaks for itself. Either way this debate has altogether ceased to be productive.

I have said this before, but it is worth repeating. Trumpism is not a movement or a philosophy. It is a cult.
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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Simonjester wrote:
pmward wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:05 pm
SomeDude wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:04 pm
Tortoise wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:49 pm Why do I keep seeing forum members claim that this is all about the cult of Trump? It's bigger than that.
Because they have no evidence Biden is the most popular political figure in history, especially in some of the key swing states. Literally no evidence.

Also, stage 4 TDS.

I have to disagree on one point my reptilian friend. The Republic probably cannot survive Harris-biden. This is not just "a crappy president". This is a criminal conspiracy to take over the US government by gangsters, many of which are probably international. I think Tech pointed out, they will change the rules so they never lose again.

If they won by fraud, who is going to prevent fraud in the future? Communists do not like to compete for votes or the consent of their slaves.

This is deadly serious business. I promise you that smiling old man is controlled by people plotting lots of death and destruction around the world. Trump was a peacemaker and that is something they couldn't tolerate any more.
Wow... just wow... somebody drank the Kool-Aide...
The everything is OK crowd... nothing to see here, no evidence is good enough to prove anything, all we need is a tweet free president, a progressive neocon republican party, more government everywhere.. and everything will be perfect... the true believers will never see the danger of of what they propose..

you are a kool-aide drinking conspiracy theorist if you dare think otherwise ... but don't worry... it may take years or decades but you are soon to be a thought criminal i am sure :(
Yeah because you know, encouraging people to read court filed legal documents is being a "conspiracy theorist". Not to mention the nice strawman you did, which is completely tangential to the context of the conversation at hand. Moreover, all the strawman arguments you made about me are false assumptions.
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

Post by Cortopassi »

Quite amazing the effect a newbie has had on these discussions over the course of 9 days on the forum. O0
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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Going to show that somedude is:

Some Dude!!!!!!!!!!!!
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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Simonjester wrote: the comments about conspiracy theorists (thought criminals) was aimed at somedude not you, although their blindness to the danger they support will eventually bite the true believers in the ass as well..
Apologies on that part, it was quoting me so I thought it was aimed at me.

FWIW, in reference to the top part that was aimed at me, I have never said no evidence is good enough. Just the specific "evidence" of "election fraud" that currently exists is not good enough. I totally would change my tune if the official legal evidence changed. I'm ok with my opinion being fluid. I'm totally ok with changing my mind. I'm a very objective person. I change my mind on things all the time. But I don't change my mind when all the objective evidence is inline with my "mind".
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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Kbg wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:30 pm Unconstitutional...on what basis?
As one example, Senator Cruz just issued a statement requesting that SCOTUS hear an emergency appeal regarding the PA election challenge. In his statement, Cruz explains why PA's recent election law changes violated its state constitution and how the recent PA Supreme Court ruling was a "catch-22".
Kbg wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:30 pm Fraudulent sufficient to change the results...on what basis?
On the basis of:

1) The shady-as-hell way in which all of the contested swing states suddenly stopped counting votes in the middle of the night on Election Night when Trump was comfortably ahead, then conveniently found boxes of ballots in the wee hours of the morning that tilted 90%+ in Biden's favor. Interesting how it only played out in that shady way in the handful of contested swing states.

2) The hundreds of signed affidavits by people who claim to have witnessed election fraud in the contested swing states. Any one incident considered individually, perhaps not enough to change the results. But considered as a whole, quite possible.

3) The data presented in the recent PA and AZ state legislature hearings that was apparently convincing enough to motivate many of the legislators to attempt initiating an electoral response.
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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Simonjester wrote:
pmward wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:05 pm
Simonjester wrote: the comments about conspiracy theorists (thought criminals) was aimed at somedude not you, although their blindness to the danger they support will eventually bite the true believers in the ass as well..
Apologies on that part, it was quoting me so I thought it was aimed at me.

FWIW, in reference to the top part that was aimed at me, I have never said no evidence is good enough. Just the specific "evidence" of "election fraud" that currently exists is not good enough. I totally would change my tune if the official legal evidence changed.
my irritation with "the lack of evidence in the courts now" as an argument is largely that the need for eternal vigilance has been so deeply and completely abandoned by half (over half?) the country now.. i don't trust government, i trust that they are always up to no good, because we MUST if we wish to remain free.. communist china, north Korea, are the extreme, but faith in your leaders, and faith that they want to keep the system honest is the wide easy path to having the dystopia they enjoy...

a large healthy dose of skepticism is needed ... always...
Skepticism is indeed warranted. But that is precisely my point. All these BS conspiracy theories are ridiculous, and even a mild dose of skepticism and objectivity debunks them quite easily.

Also, why would we trust Trump's word when the litigation he has made in court has not backed up what he says out of court? Why is there such a large disparity between what they say in court and what they say to the media? Trumps court arguments and cases are public record... and this is exactly what I keep pointing people to.

Why would someone be so quick to trust Trump and not skeptical of him, but choose to be skeptical and paranoid of all the other states, governors, elections officials, legislatures, courts, the attorney general, the ex-director of the CISA, etc? It makes no sense. Why would Trump be the exception?
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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Tortoise wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:17 pm
Kbg wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:30 pm Unconstitutional...on what basis?
As one example, Senator Cruz just issued a statement requesting that SCOTUS hear an emergency appeal regarding the PA election challenge. In his statement, Cruz explains why PA's recent election law changes violated its state constitution and how the recent PA Supreme Court ruling was a "catch-22".
Kbg wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:30 pm Fraudulent sufficient to change the results...on what basis?
On the basis of:

1) The shady-as-hell way in which all of the contested swing states suddenly stopped counting votes in the middle of the night on Election Night when Trump was comfortably ahead, then conveniently found boxes of ballots in the wee hours of the morning that tilted 90%+ in Biden's favor. Interesting how it only played out in that shady way in the handful of contested swing states.

2) The hundreds of signed affidavits by people who claim to have witnessed election fraud in the contested swing states. Any one incident considered individually, perhaps not enough to change the results. But considered as a whole, quite possible.

3) The data presented in the recent PA and AZ state legislature hearings that was apparently convincing enough to motivate many of the legislators to attempt initiating an electoral response.
Eyewitnesses???? Expert testimony??? Suspicious activity that looks like fraud??? Motive and means????

You are also a thought criminal. Your crime is thinking.
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

Post by pmward »

Simonjester wrote:
pmward wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:33 pm
Simonjester wrote:
pmward wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:05 pm
Simonjester wrote: the comments about conspiracy theorists (thought criminals) was aimed at somedude not you, although their blindness to the danger they support will eventually bite the true believers in the ass as well..
Apologies on that part, it was quoting me so I thought it was aimed at me.

FWIW, in reference to the top part that was aimed at me, I have never said no evidence is good enough. Just the specific "evidence" of "election fraud" that currently exists is not good enough. I totally would change my tune if the official legal evidence changed.
my irritation with "the lack of evidence in the courts now" as an argument is largely that the need for eternal vigilance has been so deeply and completely abandoned by half (over half?) the country now.. i don't trust government, i trust that they are always up to no good, because we MUST if we wish to remain free.. communist china, north Korea, are the extreme, but faith in your leaders, and faith that they want to keep the system honest is the wide easy path to having the dystopia they enjoy...

a large healthy dose of skepticism is needed ... always...
Skepticism is indeed warranted. But that is precisely my point. All these BS conspiracy theories are ridiculous, and even a mild dose of skepticism and objectivity debunks them quite easily.

Also, why would we trust Trump's word when the litigation he has made in court has not backed up what he says out of court? Why is there such a large disparity between what they say in court and what they say to the media? Trumps court arguments and cases are public record... and this is exactly what I keep pointing people to.

Why would someone be so quick to trust Trump and not skeptical of him, but choose to be skeptical and paranoid of all the other states, governors, elections officials, legislatures, courts, the attorney general, the ex-director of the CISA, etc? It makes no sense. Why would Trump be the exception?
skeptically questioning those who question government and dismissing them as conspiratorial (a loaded word meant to imply derision and encourage immediate dismissal with out any need to be considered ) is not even remotely the same thing... and is in fact the exact opposite of skepticism of government..

and for the record i didn't trust trump i took a chance on him.. and i give him support for his accomplishments, i will also turn on him in a heartbeat when he goes against the people.. but there is just WAY TO MUCH "non-evedence" that we have crossed the line between representative republic and banana republic,
what is going on in this election is wrong in so many ways, i will gladly abandon the comfortable status quo of returning to government as usual, in favor of chaos and court drama to get to the bottom of what seems like a overt and blatant big push to achieve a permanent state of corruption..
I've said many times I'm all for investigation if there is question. BUT I very much disagree that we should give any mind to baseless conspiracy theories. If I brought a left-wing conspiracy theory you guys would shred me to pieces. I show the right wing conspiracy theorists here more respect than they would show me if I brought a left-wing conspiracy theory to the board. There is a very large bias and hypocrisy on this board. You have lost many forum members over the last year or two because of this. And your claims of "overt and blatant big push to achieve a permanent state of corruption" are baseless. Like you can say these words, but with no proof they are nothing more than conjecture.
Simonjester wrote:
well i am about done with the round and round on this, but again you miss the point completely...

nobody here is looking for lizard people yet you keep using "conspiratorial" a loaded word meant to imply derision and encourage immediate dismissal with out any need to be considered.. to describe the right .. which very few of us, myself included actually are.. we are not the brain dead hillbilly trump idolators you make us out to be.. (the board is intellectual libertarian leaning if anything BTW)

here https://www.newsmax.com/us/election-the ... id/998968/
it is not facts presented in a court of law so i know you cant hear this.. and will deny it is evidence... (it is actually an article about a lack of curiosity..)

but if this were a game of craps, and one guy gets exactly the roll he needs at exactly the right time "he would be lucky", if he does it repeatedly, on all the right throws exactly where he needs to, and the other shooter is doing very well except every spot where the pot gets big and then he rolls snake eyes every time... nothing to see here right?

but its not evidence ... so how about we settle this over a game of dice >:D
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

Post by Cortopassi »

I know it means nothing now, but if the election went for Trump would any of this be being litigated, or would it have been deemed a fraud free election by Trump, and fraud filled by Biden?
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

Post by glennds »

Simonjester wrote: my irritation with "the lack of evidence in the courts now" as an argument is largely that the need for eternal vigilance has been so deeply and completely abandoned by half (over half?) the country now.. i don't trust government, i trust that they are always up to no good, because we MUST if we wish to remain free.. communist china, north Korea, are the extreme, but faith in your leaders, and faith that they want to keep the system honest is the wide easy path to having the dystopia they enjoy...

a large healthy dose of skepticism is needed ... always...
Can a government ever have a healthy relationship with its populace if the skepticism you reference escalates beyond a certain point?

Might I say there's a bell curve to it where complacent obedience is on the one side (not good), and mistrustful contempt is on the other (also not good).
Where is the healthy point, and where are we (and where are we headed) right now?

By the way, let me add that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm asking the questions in broad terms because it seems to me that it's a balancing act but I'd be interested in other viewpoints.
Simonjester wrote: the American system of government was conceived with that healthy dose of skepticism built in, the point of a limited federal government with constrained powers (a constitution defending freedom from tyranny) and very limited federal duties, and having states that the people are closest to and best able to control, doing most of the governing, is to keep that skepticism in the front of the choices we make about government..

the only healthy relationship government can have with the people is self government, "government of the people by the people for the people" anything else is varying degrees of power mad people - who you should have no trust in what so ever, all of them always aiming for a bit more power, from minor covid scolds to kim jung... they all face and move away from freedom.


where are we now? does what we have look anything like "by of and for the people"? do our leaders act like covid scolds and foreign tyrants seeking more power? or representatives of their fellow Americans?
Last edited by glennds on Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

Post by vnatale »

pmward wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:22 pm
vnatale wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:10 pm But Bush and his team don’t care; they almost never do. Quite unlike the Gorebies, who shiver at the slightest negative clause in a New York Times op-ed.
This is the same thing today. Biden and his team don't care. They don't appear to have a worry in the world. They aren't out playing defense. They aren't out on social media making claims. To them it's just business as usual. But every article, statement, and ruling that goes against Trump immediately gets Trump's response, just like Barr's did today. Just like "the Gorebies" did in 2000. Why is that?
Just read this one, which made me sit up and take notice! This book was written in January 2001!

Vinny


They negotiated that the RV would move by the end of the day.

The protesters claim to be just outraged Americans. But Villafana and Hollander discover that the RV has been rented by Sean T. Miles, vice president of operations for the Bush-Cheney advance team.

And while the outside world might not know it, most of the demonstration is organized by Brad Blakeman, who tells reporters that he’s just “a Long Island lawyer.” He is from Long Island, and he is a lawyer, but he’s also the Bush-Cheney campaign’s director of advance travel logistics. Inside the RV is Republican strategist Roger Stone, last seen publicly flacking for Donald Trump’s flirtation with presidential politics. And Bush communications honcho Ed Gillespie is seen on the ground Monday and Tuesday directing the crowds, steering the orchestrated ugliness. One of Bush’s media advisers, swingin’ Stuart Stevens, is buzzing around somewhere, as well.

Blakeman tells reporters that they are all just outraged Republicans who have come from all over the country. The truth is that while some are rank-and-file Florida Republicans, a significant number of the protesters—and not just its leaders—are Bush campaign staffers or Republican staffers from the House and Senate.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

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Simonjester wrote: well i am about done with the round and round on this, but again you miss the point completely...
It's on purpose.
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

Post by Libertarian666 »

Tortoise wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:32 pm
Cortopassi wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:14 pm I am happy to watch this topic and not post and I'd be happy to hear real arguments that can be made in front of a court.
Getting a court to actually hear one of the cases so that discovery can be conducted (to produce what the lefties here call "credible evidence") seems to be the hard part. Most of the lower court judges seem to be scared of stepping into the political minefield, so they keep passing the buck up to the higher courts -- ultimately to SCOTUS.

In the meantime, the lefties on this forum keep pointing to the various courts' refusals to hear cases as an indication that there's no "credible evidence." Even though "credible evidence" by their definition presumably must come from discovery if a court agrees to hear the case. As sophie said in a different thread regarding what constitutes "credible sources" online, it's a catch-22. Heads I win, tails you lose.

Do the forum lefties think that the evidence presented at the recent PA and AZ legislative hearings isn't credible? When I see claims that credible evidence is still nowhere in sight (a very strong claim), I must assume that the people making that claim have watched those legislative hearings and judged all of the presented evidence to be meritless for some very good reasons.
Of course they haven't watched any of those hearings. Why should they? There's no evidence, remember?
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

Post by SomeDude »

Libertarian666 wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:57 pm If so, the rule of law is extinct, and so is the Republic.
If the Supreme Court declares the Republic is dead, would you support martial law and arrest of the conspirators?

I would. Hopefully it does not come to that but they still end up on trial.
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

Post by SomeDude »

sophie wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:43 pm
However - I would guess that most of the fraud occurred on an individual or small group level, and was not systemic at, say, the level of national Democratic leadership. Like, someone using a friend's, or even a group-provided address to send in mailed ballots in several states, or mail in a ballot in the home state and travel to an adjacent state to vote in person after claiming to have just moved there. Also, mail-in ballots make it almost trivial for a non-citizen to vote: all you need is an address.
Based on this it sounds like you think dishonest people are more likely to be democrats. I agree for reasons i said before (ends justify the means type people).
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

Post by Cortopassi »

SomeDude wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:07 pm
Libertarian666 wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:57 pm If so, the rule of law is extinct, and so is the Republic.
If the Supreme Court declares the Republic is dead, would you support martial law and arrest of the conspirators?

I would. Hopefully it does not come to that but they still end up on trial.
No way to respond to this other than come back and look at your comments in a couple years and see if you still agree with them.

The end of the republic is nigh, I guess!
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Re: Election Fraud and path forward

Post by Tortoise »

I suspect SomeDude’s comment about martial law may be alluding to this tweet by the attorney Lin Wood today:

https://twitter.com/LLinWood/status/133 ... 37537?s=20
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