Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

pmward
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:35 am

I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:38 am

pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:29 am

This is all opinion and conjecture. No proof, as such it's a weak argument that we all can (and will) dismiss instantly.
Did you see the videos of republican observers standing outside polling places while "votes" were being "counted"? Did you see the boards being put up to block observation?

What is that proof of?

If I see a guy standing over a murder victim with the bloody knife in his hand and he's publicly stated he wants to murder him, do I need video proof of the actual stabbing? Actually I think they have videos of ballot counters filling out ballots (just the presidential race of course).
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:40 am

pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:35 am
I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.
Well let's bring it back to the topic. What do you think is driving the large number of Dems to think the election was stolen from Trump? Virtually all the media, and even a good portion of FOX keep saying there is no evidence and the election was secure and just.

What is causing so many people to doubt the results? Do you think Dems are just getting Trump's twitter feed and believing it?
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:43 am

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:40 am
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:35 am
I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.
Well let's bring it back to the topic. What do you think is driving the large number of Dems to think the election was stolen from Trump? Virtually all the media, and even a good portion of FOX keep saying there is no evidence and the election was secure and just.

What is causing so many people to doubt the results? Do you think Dems are just getting Trump's twitter feed and believing it?
I don't care. Opinion is not fact. What someone thinks happened has no bearing on what actually did (or did not) happen. I also don't trust studies put out on media. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" and all that.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:46 am

pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:43 am
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:40 am
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:35 am
I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.
Well let's bring it back to the topic. What do you think is driving the large number of Dems to think the election was stolen from Trump? Virtually all the media, and even a good portion of FOX keep saying there is no evidence and the election was secure and just.

What is causing so many people to doubt the results? Do you think Dems are just getting Trump's twitter feed and believing it?
I don't care. Opinion is not fact. What someone thinks happened has no bearing on what actually did (or did not) happen. I also don't trust studies put out on media. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" and all that.
Ahhhhh. My mistake. I thought we were discussing why so many dems think Trump got cheated.

Well cheers to having the facts come out. I hope we can all agree if there was fraud it's important to get to the bottom of it. If a group of criminals is trying to get complete control of the government through fraud and intimidation, they sure as heck do not have good things planned for us.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:54 am

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:46 am
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:43 am
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:40 am
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:35 am
I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.
Well let's bring it back to the topic. What do you think is driving the large number of Dems to think the election was stolen from Trump? Virtually all the media, and even a good portion of FOX keep saying there is no evidence and the election was secure and just.

What is causing so many people to doubt the results? Do you think Dems are just getting Trump's twitter feed and believing it?
I don't care. Opinion is not fact. What someone thinks happened has no bearing on what actually did (or did not) happen. I also don't trust studies put out on media. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" and all that.
Ahhhhh. My mistake. I thought we were discussing why so many dems think Trump got cheated.

Well cheers to having the facts come out. I hope we can all agree if there was fraud it's important to get to the bottom of it. If a group of criminals is trying to get complete control of the government through fraud and intimidation, they sure as heck do not have good things planned for us.
When and how can we agree? Aren't judges government officials? Maybe they are in on it as well...I don't think any evidence will be enough to convince some. There is a flat earth society for a reason after all...no amount of evidence is enough to persuade some
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:55 am

Bottom line I have mentioned before to tech and sophie --

If Trump won, I would have dealt with it the best I could and not suspected fraud.

Ditto if Biden lost.

My sense is that there are people, on this forum and elsewhere in America, who will go to their graves believing the election was stolen from Trump. I truly feel bad for you, to have something like that gnawing at your soul constantly. I hope people can get over it at some point.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by vnatale » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:13 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:31 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:21 am
How do you explain the many non-presidential elections on all levels won by the Republicans?

Were the tampered or fraudulent ballots only done so for the presidential elections and NONE of the other elections?

That is a basic question that needs to be satisfactorily answered by anyone believing the presidential election was stolen. Why stop there? Why not steal lots of other ones?

Vinny
Who's to say they didn't steal a lot more?

Republicans winning back a lot of seats and holding the Senate despite having twice as many seats up for grabs is an argument that there WAS fraud at the presidential level, not against it.

Unless you believe one of these things:

1. Republican voters turned out in record numbers to enthusiastically vote for their congress people and senators who they love so much but decided to vote for Harris-biden as well.

2. Democrats and liberals came out in record numbers to vote for Harris-biden (millions more than for Obama), but then broke for republicans or otherwise ignored the down ballot races.

Those scenarios seem like wild conspiracy theories to me. Which one of them do you think happened?

Occam's razor - it's much more likely the down ballot stuff had less fraud. If there was too much fraud in the small races that are much more easily verifiable, audits of votes in congressional districts would put the obvious fraud at the presidential level at great risk.
You are correct. As I was writing what I wrote above the thought crossed my mind that a response could be that they actually did steal more. That the the Republicans winning so many elections was not in itself determinative. That if there had not been such widespread fraud that they would have won ever MORE elections. That would be all be consistent thinking. But I don't believe any of it.

What I believe?

What I heard a Republican say on C-Span during the last week make sense. This was a Republican who'd served in two Republican administrations. He did not believe that there was any election fraud of any consequence and that all the election results were valid. Under that assumption it says that a lot of people in this country like the Republican brand, policies. But also a lot of them just could not take another four years of Trump so they voted for the alternative.

This is exactly the question I'd asked here prior to the election. What voting groups were going to vote for him in a higher rate in 2020 than they had in 2016? I could not see any. All I could see that the ones who had voted for Obama prior had voted for Trump because of perceived change decided that he was not the type of change that they were seeking. There were definite consequences to the way he carried out his presidency. I do now acknowledge that there were some voting groups (blacks, Latinos?) who did vote at a higher rate for him in 2020 than 2016 but this increase was no where the decrease the from those he alienated (I believe this was the educated).

Vinny
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:24 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:13 pm
You are correct. As I was writing what I wrote above the thought crossed my mind that a response could be that they actually did steal more. That the the Republicans winning so many elections was not in itself determinative. That if there had not been such widespread fraud that they would have won ever MORE elections. That would be all be consistent thinking. But I don't believe any of it.

Vinny
[/quote]

Big ups for this Vinny. We don't have to agree on conclusions, but on consistent thinking if possible. I'll take a look at the rest of your post later.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:16 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:13 pm
What I heard a Republican say on C-Span during the last week make sense. This was a Republican who'd served in two Republican administrations. He did not believe that there was any election fraud of any consequence and that all the election results were valid. Under that assumption it says that a lot of people in this country like the Republican brand, policies. But also a lot of them just could not take another four years of Trump so they voted for the alternative.
Didn't he get more votes than any Republican ever? See I think Trump is wildly popular with Republicans, much more so than anyone else in that party. I can speak for myself personally, I voted for Trump in 2016 and that was literally the ONLY person I voted for. I was like one of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Harris-biden voters that didn't select anyone else. I did vote the state amendments. This year when I voted for Trump, for the first time in my life I voted for Republicans other than him (since he's not really one of them).

He was drawing massive crowds unlike anything even Regan could turn out, with 100 mile caravans or whatever for him.

See I think it's the exact opposite of what the guy on C-span said. Almost all of my friends are Republicans, and love Trump to the point we can't discuss it (since I'm not a big fan of him). They can't see how liberal and socialist he is, but love him like he's a free market guy. He got republicans to turn out big, resulting in them demolishing the "blue wave" the media kept hyping.

Sounds very silly to me to think people came out to vote the down ballot repukes and didn't go for Trump. Much more likely they came out BECAUSE of Trump, and Harris-biden have higher vote counts because there's lots of funny business in 5-6 key states, maybe more.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by vnatale » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:30 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:16 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:13 pm
What I heard a Republican say on C-Span during the last week make sense. This was a Republican who'd served in two Republican administrations. He did not believe that there was any election fraud of any consequence and that all the election results were valid. Under that assumption it says that a lot of people in this country like the Republican brand, policies. But also a lot of them just could not take another four years of Trump so they voted for the alternative.
Didn't he get more votes than any Republican ever? See I think Trump is wildly popular with Republicans, much more so than anyone else in that party. I can speak for myself personally, I voted for Trump in 2016 and that was literally the ONLY person I voted for. I was like one of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Harris-biden voters that didn't select anyone else. I did vote the state amendments. This year when I voted for Trump, for the first time in my life I voted for Republicans other than him (since he's not really one of them).

He was drawing massive crowds unlike anything even Regan could turn out, with 100 mile caravans or whatever for him.

See I think it's the exact opposite of what the guy on C-span said. Almost all of my friends are Republicans, and love Trump to the point we can't discuss it (since I'm not a big fan of him). They can't see how liberal and socialist he is, but love him like he's a free market guy. He got republicans to turn out big, resulting in them demolishing the "blue wave" the media kept hyping.

Sounds very silly to me to think people came out to vote the down ballot repukes and didn't go for Trump. Much more likely they came out BECAUSE of Trump, and Harris-biden have higher vote counts because there's lots of funny business in 5-6 key states, maybe more.
He may have got the second most votes ever.

He inspired votes on both sides. He inspired more of his true supporters to come out for him. But he also inspired all the Biden true supporters / Never Trumpers / Bernie former voters to come out. On top of that he inspired many of his form 2016 voters to also come out and vote for Biden to make sure they did not get a Trump repeat. He was by far the most polarizing president in my lifetime and what I just described would not be unexpected.

He also far outdrew Hillary in 2016 in terms of crowds (and, even more so in 2016 than 2020 since there were no virus impediments then). But just as like 2016, he failed to win the popular vote.

Finally, there is no disputing that Trump is wildly popular with Republicans.

However just grabbing this randomly from the internet..."In aggregate, 40% of all voters in party registration states are Democrats, 29% are Republicans, and 28% are independents. "...if true that points out that neither party wins with just their own. They need to collect a good percentage of those 28% independents. A lot of those independents DID vote for Trump in 2016 with their perception of who they thought he would be. After four years of seeing who he was, they decided, No thanks to a four year repeat.

I had one of those type people in my house last week. Voted for Trump in 2016. No way would vote for him in 2020.

Vinny
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:38 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:30 pm


I had one of those type people in my house last week. Voted for Trump in 2016. No way would vote for him in 2020.

Vinny
My boss' wife did that in AZ, so I give him hell for that every day. I flipped my wife over from Hillary, and so did another gal I work with since she got married and has kids and more income.

Ultimately this comes down to a few key states and what happened in them. Odd that Ohio would go crushingly for Trump, and MI/PA wouldn't. Very odd that FL would be a relatively easy win, where Trump was supposedly down in the polls, and he'd lose GA where he was supposedly polling up.

Very odd indeed :o

I wouldn't put the popcorn down just yet.
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