Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

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sophie
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by sophie » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:57 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:40 am
But you've omitted a possibly small definitely but important point, which is that TDS isn't just about Trump himself, but anyone who supports him in any way or even isn't completely onboard with hatred for him.
Well, those are sort of wrapped up in what I intended to say, yes.

I have absolutely learned that simply stating that I agree about the nastiness of Trump's tweets and his irritatingly constant need for self-congratulation isn't sufficient to appease these folks, because I THEN go on to say that I consider all this less important than his policies (i.e. "Trump-ism" if you will). That does not satisfy the ravening beast, which requires a deep, unconditional and absolute hatred to the exclusion of all other considerations. My mind just doesn't work that way.

That's what borderline personality disorder is all about: an inability to see shades of gray, and a strong tendency to divide the world into people that are hated or loved - with nothing in between. That also explains the love affair with Biden, who I recognize is more polished but who is also an unscrupulous creep. And Kamala Harris is the original "Mean Girl" and I suspect would be no better than Trump in building a bipartisan consensus. Not saying the trolls/lunatics/whatever you call them meet criteria for BPD, but it sure is hard not to think of that possibility.

Actually tech I'd really rather discuss Trump-style populism, as a very enticing and likely successful way forward for the Republican Party. Could we? I'd really enjoy that.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Don » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:29 am
"But, Joe Biden’s problems are not simply because many Republicans believe the election was stolen. It’s true that the poll showed a significant partisan divide on this issue: 75 percent of Republicans believe it is very likely (61 percent) or somewhat likely (14 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump. But, according to the poll, while 69 percent of Democrats say it is not at all likely (61 percent) or not very likely (8 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump, 30 percent of Democrats believe it is very likely (20 percent) or somewhat likely (10 percent) that it was.

Let me repeat, nearly a third of Democrats believe it is likely that the election was stolen from President Trump. That’s a remarkable number. Huge, in fact."

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/m ... p-n1160882
The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Tortoise » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:28 pm

Don wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm
The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
Some people believe that the ends justify the means.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:52 pm

Don wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:29 am
"But, Joe Biden’s problems are not simply because many Republicans believe the election was stolen. It’s true that the poll showed a significant partisan divide on this issue: 75 percent of Republicans believe it is very likely (61 percent) or somewhat likely (14 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump. But, according to the poll, while 69 percent of Democrats say it is not at all likely (61 percent) or not very likely (8 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump, 30 percent of Democrats believe it is very likely (20 percent) or somewhat likely (10 percent) that it was.

Let me repeat, nearly a third of Democrats believe it is likely that the election was stolen from President Trump. That’s a remarkable number. Huge, in fact."

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/m ... p-n1160882
The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
Proof? If you can bring me one shred of evidence that there was "fraud" or "theft" in any way, I'm talking real proof submitted and accepted in a court of law, then we can have a discussion. Until said proof is brought to the table your arguments are all conjecture. If Trump miraculously brings some real proof to the table tomorrow that there was fraud, and that the election would have been a different outcome without the fraud, you will see me completely flip my opinion. My opinion is not set in stone, it is based on the current state of the evidence (or lack thereof). I may not have liked it, but I accepted Trump winning in 2016, and I would similarly accept him winning in 2020, if he really won. I want the president that won the election to be the president. It just so happens there is 0 proof submitted to the courts that it was Trump that won the election. Until that changes I operate under the view that Biden won, as all evidence in hand currently shows.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Ad Orientem » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:01 pm

pmward wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:52 pm
Don wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:29 am
"But, Joe Biden’s problems are not simply because many Republicans believe the election was stolen. It’s true that the poll showed a significant partisan divide on this issue: 75 percent of Republicans believe it is very likely (61 percent) or somewhat likely (14 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump. But, according to the poll, while 69 percent of Democrats say it is not at all likely (61 percent) or not very likely (8 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump, 30 percent of Democrats believe it is very likely (20 percent) or somewhat likely (10 percent) that it was.

Let me repeat, nearly a third of Democrats believe it is likely that the election was stolen from President Trump. That’s a remarkable number. Huge, in fact."

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/m ... p-n1160882
The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
Proof? If you can bring me one shred of evidence that there was "fraud" or "theft" in any way, I'm talking real proof submitted and accepted in a court of law, then we can have a discussion. Until said proof is brought to the table your arguments are all conjecture. If Trump miraculously brings some real proof to the table tomorrow that there was fraud, and that the election would have been a different outcome without the fraud, you will see me completely flip my opinion. My opinion is not set in stone, it is based on the current state of the evidence (or lack thereof). I may not have liked it, but I accepted Trump winning in 2016, and I would similarly accept him winning in 2020, if he really won. I want the president that won the election to be the president. It just so happens there is 0 proof submitted to the courts that it was Trump that won the election.

I hate to admit this, but I think I have found the evidence of fraud that Trump and his surrogates have been referring to. And I'm fairly certain the video footage was not doctored. Assuming the video is legitimate, then it is pretty much damning. In all three of the contested states, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Georgia... they let black people vote.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Mark Leavy » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:09 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:01 pm
I hate to admit this, but I think I have found the evidence of fraud that Trump and his surrogates have been referring to. And I'm fairly certain the video footage was not doctored. Assuming the video is legitimate, then it is pretty much damning. In all three of the contested states, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Georgia... they let black people vote.
Not only that, but WOMEN!
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:10 pm

Simonjester wrote: would you accept that it might take time to collect document and present "real" proof and that enough time hasn't passed yet?

FWWIW i haven't seen any real proof yet either, but i see mountains of indication of foul play, and do accept the above.. i will also accept that it may not be provable, and possibly may not exist...
I think it would take time to document and process some proof, but not all proof. There should be something out by now. What do I see? A bunch of small court cases being laughed out of the courts (even by right wing judges) specifically for "lack of evidence". We are not guilty until proven innocent in this country. It is on Trump to prove the guilt of the Democratic Party, not on the Democratic Party to prove its innocence. The lack of evidence is in itself the very argument for innocence. So, I think we all should operate from the viewpoint of the evidence at hand... and that evidence says Biden won, and should be allowed to begin his transition just like every single president before him was allowed to start their transition. We can always stop that transition in a few weeks if evidence is really brought up. We should not alter our operations as a country in any way when there is no proof to suggest altering them in any way.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:16 pm

Simonjester wrote: would you accept that it might take time to collect document and present "real" proof and that enough time hasn't passed yet?

FWWIW i haven't seen any real proof yet either, but i see mountains of indication of foul play, and do accept the above.. i will also accept that it may not be provable, and possibly may not exist...
What mountains of indication of foul play that have merit? Sure there are plenty of allegations, and conspiracies. It's easy to shout that Dominion rigged the vote tabulations in Philadelphia as that video you posted yesterday did, however Dominion wasn't even involved in tabulating the votes in Philadelphia. I assume we need to rely on our court system to separate the wheat from the chaff. Up until this point all allegations have been tossed out as complete nonsense.

I will note, there is a world of difference between the evidence brought forth so far by the Trump campaign regarding election fraud and that evidence brought to bear against the Trump administration by the Mueller reports investigation into foreign interference in 2016. Just looking at the evidence impartially at this point one would have to conclude that there is no evidence of fraud in 2020 and plenty of evidence of collusion and interference in 2016.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:19 pm

Would Republicans like it if all a Democrat had to do was make an allegation against a Republican with no proof to get their role altered in any way? Like what if during the Trump impeachment fiasco they removed Trump from power until it was all over? Would that have been fair? Of course not. An accusation is not enough, and should not ever be enough, to change anything.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:45 pm

By the way I should also mention I think Biden has taken this whole thing very well considering. He has said he wishes he could begin his transition officially, but that he is willing to be patient and that he is not going to try to fight for it in the courts. He is not trying to fight Trump in a social media PR blitz. He doesn't seem to feel any need to defend himself. He doesn't really seem phased in any real way by all of Trumps accusations and actions. He is really just kind of sitting back, doing the best he can with what is available, and letting the evidence speak for itself. All things considered, I think that the way he has handled this craziness is admirable. You know Trump wouldn't show that kind of patience, low-key confidence, and restraint if the roles were reversed. The difference in professionalism between Biden and Trump is striking.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by InsuranceGuy » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:48 pm

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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by vnatale » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:48 pm

pmward wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:19 pm
Would Republicans like it if all a Democrat had to do was make an allegation against a Republican with no proof to get their role altered in any way? Like what if during the Trump impeachment fiasco they removed Trump from power until it was all over? Would that have been fair? Of course not. An accusation is not enough, and should not ever be enough, to change anything.
This HAS been the Republican playbook for quite some time now. From the book on Hillary I'd prior referenced today...

Vinny

The most effective anti-Clinton book of the campaign season was Clinton Cash by Peter Schweizer. Years of effort and $1.7 million of Mercer family money went into the book, which was published by HarperCollins, which was owned by longtime Clinton antagonist Rupert Murdoch. In its tone, reporting, and writing quality, Clinton Cash would not have passed muster with many editors, but HarperCollins released it as if it were a worthy work. After complaints were lodged, the publisher acknowledged that the book contained errors that required “seven or eight passages” be corrected and retailer Amazon.com contacted its customers to tell them “significant revisions have been made” and they could access the new version of the electronic book for free. Though an embarrassment for HarperCollins, these troubles didn’t change the fact that a book bearing the imprimatur of a mainstream publisher could be cited by those who needed arguments to use against Hillary Clinton.

Clinton Cash argued that as secretary of state, Hillary Clinton had secretly encouraged powerful foreigners and others to make donations to the Clinton Foundation and to pay six-figure speaking fees to her husband. In exchange, Schweizer implied, she used her office, in one way or another, to benefit the donors. (Engaged in health, education, and economic development around the world, the foundation earned top ratings from charity analysts.)8

Much of Schweizer’s argument involved inference based on the timing of events that only seemed suspect to a researcher who failed to complete an investigation. For example, Schweizer made much of a U.S. funding paid to an Irish company that worked in Haiti after the devastating 2010 earthquake. Bill Clinton was invited to speak in Ireland by the firm’s owner. Schweizer presumed he had been paid handsomely. He had, in fact, earned nothing personally, as the host made a donation to the Clinton Foundation. Schweizer made a different kind of error when it came to his claim that some sort of funny business had transpired when TD Bank began selling shares of a pipeline project after it paid Bill Clinton for speeches. In fact, the share sale announcement, which Schweizer used as a source, was a fake. No such divestment had occurred.9

The TD Bank and Irish speech tales were stricken from the electronic version of his book soon after it was published, but the most widely reported claim in the book remained. This bit focused on the sale of a Canadian-based company called Uranium One. The firm owned some uranium mines in Wyoming, which meant that federal approval was required when it was acquired in 2010 by a state-owned company in Russia. Schweizer’s supposed smoking gun was the fact that the Clinton Foundation had received more than $130 million in donations from a major Uranium One investor named Frank Giustra. The problem, for Schweizer, was that Giustra sold his interest in Uranium One three years before the Russian deal. Also, Schweizer’s Clinton Cash claim that Hillary Clinton either approved or could have stopped the sale was simply false. The State Department did have a vote on the committee that considered the sale, but eight other agencies had equal say. Finally, Clinton Cash asserted that control of 20 percent of U.S. uranium, a metal essential to energy production and the manufacture of nuclear weapons, was transferred to Russia in the sale. In fact, the Wyoming facilities had the potential to produce 20 percent of U.S. uranium, but experts said this shouldn’t be considered a measure of its actual share. Besides, 90 percent of the uranium used in the United States came from abroad.10

Despite the flaws in his argument, Schweizer received invaluable press attention for his book as its release approached. From those who were reliably anti-Hillary Clinton, he got breathless excitement. Skeptics like George Stephanopoulos of ABC News (who had worked in the Clinton White House) were much less friendly. When Schweizer sat for a prepublication interview, Stephanopoulos outlined the problems in the Uranium One story and listened as Schweizer offered the circular argument that the issue “deserves further scrutiny” because of the claims in his book. Stephanopoulos then asked, “But based on what? Based on what?”

Schweizer struggled to reply, saying, “Well, I think based on her…”

As Schweizer’s voice faltered, Stephanopoulos asked, “Do you have any evidence that she actually intervened in this issue?”

“No, we don’t have direct evidence,” confessed Schweizer. “But it warrants further investigation because, again, George, this is part of the broader pattern. You either have to come to the conclusion that these are all coincidences or something else is afoot.”11

The “pattern” Schweizer referenced was to be found in his book, but so many of his examples would be discredited that the notion that something nefarious could be concluded fell apart. However, even a casual survey of Schweizer’s background would uncover an actual pattern of flawed reporting and misrepresentations in his previous work:


•  In 1993, claims in Schweizer’s debut book, Friendly Spies, were debunked by reporters for The Times of London, who found “checkable facts do not check out” and “individuals credited for supplying information do not exist or cannot be tracked down.” Years later, the book did not appear on Schweizer’s website, where other books were listed.12

•  In 2005, comedian Al Franken caught Schweizer’s erroneous claim that he had neglected minorities by hiring just 1 black worker out of 112 people he had employed over the years. Schweizer was wrong when it came to Franken’s hiring authority (he never had the chance to employ so many folks) and wrong about the number of minority candidates he hired when he could make the choice.13

•  In 2007, USA Today editors corrected a Schweizer claim that, despite his concern for the environment, Al Gore was collecting royalties on a zinc mine. The mine had been closed for years.14

•  In 2011, Schweizer retracted a claim that Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island used “insider information” he learned as a public official to profit in the stock market.15

•  In 2011, Schweizer also made false claims of insider trading against Representative Jim McDermott. The claim didn’t match either the facts of the stock trading or the timing of government action.16

•  In 2013, Schweizer falsely claimed that as president, Barack Obama had only met once with the Health and Human Services secretary Kathleen Sebelius. As Time debunked this claim, it documented numerous meetings and explained that in using White House public logs and presidential calendars as his sources, Schweizer overlooked the fact that visits with cabinet secretaries are often not included in these reports.17

By the time Clinton Cash was published in 2015, Schweizer had been caught in so many distortions of fact that no reputable newspaper would have employed him as a cub reporter. His employment history, his benefactors, and the fact that the victims of his acts were all Democrats left little doubt about his agenda. However, just as the schemers behind the Arkansas Project had enticed mainstream reporters to take up the nonissue of Whitewater, with the aid of Bannon’s Breitbart, Fox News, and his Murdoch-owned publisher HarperCollins, Schweizer seeded the press with tantalizing hints of what Clinton Cash revealed. Long before its publication, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and Fox News committed to reporting on the book in exchange for early access to its contents.18

Some mainstream outlets presented the claims in Clinton Cash with many caveats and dashes of skepticism. The editorial board of The New York Times, for example, followed the paper’s report on the Uranium One tale with a piece that noted its complexity and that “there is no indication that Mrs. Clinton played a role in the uranium deal’s eventual approval by a cabinet-level committee.” The same editorial observed that Hillary Clinton had resigned from the Clinton Foundation board to prevent conflicts of interest, and the foundation had begun to reveal more data about its operations than required by law. Nevertheless, the editorial board wrote, “the foundation’s role in the lives of the Clintons is inevitably becoming a subject of political concern.”19

Separate from the editorial, The Times’s Schweizer-inspired news report on Uranium One, which bore the headline CASH FLOWED TO CLINTON FOUNDATION AMID RUSSIAN URANIUM DEAL, explained, “Whether the donations played any role in the approval of the uranium deal is unknown.” However, the overall thrust of the article made it clear that something suspicious and perhaps dangerous had occurred. The piece noted that Uranium One lands held 20 percent of U.S. uranium reserve but not that the law barred the sale of American uranium abroad. Under the subheading “The Power to Say No,” the article explained that a Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, which included a representative of the Department of State, could have stopped the Uranium One sale. Actually, the committee could only make a recommendation to the president, who had the power to say no. Although the committee’s work was generally kept confidential, the department’s man on the panel said he had never been contacted by Hillary Clinton to discuss any matter under consideration. Finally, the writers described donations to the Clinton Foundation as a matter of Hillary Clinton’s husband “collecting millions in donations from people associated with Uranium One.” It was, of course, the charity that “collected” the donation, and as oversight groups had documented, more than 86 percent of the money the Clinton Foundation raised was spent on programs, with less than 11 percent going to administration.20

When the nonpartisan PolitiFact website looked into Uranium One, it concluded that the secretary of state was not authorized to stop the deal and that “there is no evidence that donations to the Clinton Foundation from people with ties to Uranium One or Bill Clinton’s speaking fee influenced Hillary Clinton’s official actions.” PolitiFact was one of many mainstream news operations that were both derided and courted by the Right. When its findings were supportive, archconservatives deemed PolitiFact authoritative. When they were not, they said that the fact-checkers were unfair.

Unfortunately for Clinton, the online fact-checkers worked in a slow and piecemeal fashion, and even when they reached conclusions, they couldn’t match the effect of the coverage the issue, and Clinton Cash, received in the early days of the 2016 campaign. The key was the tactic Schweizer’s Breitbart colleague Wynton Hall termed anchor left, pivot right. This meant enticing one big mainstream media outlet like The Times to legitimize a narrative and then using that imprimatur to expand its effectiveness. (Former Arkansas Project conspirator David Brock offered a variation on this idea, suggesting that Schweizer needed a “host body” to nourish his claims long enough for them to gain strength.)21

As ideal host bodies, The Times and The Post energized the arguments in Clinton Cash and disseminated them to other outlets, where they were reprinted. Their distillations of Schweizer became fodder for broadcasters, including the New York public radio station WNYC, which devoted more than half an hour to a conversation with one of the authors of its first big news report about Uranium One and the Clinton Foundation. From this point forward, those who would defend Schweizer and his book could point to the paper of record and note that it had seemingly certified that a genuine controversy had been revealed. Eventually, the weaknesses in the book, and the press accounts about the Uranium One story, would be revealed by many journalists, including Shepard Smith of Fox News, who would spark outrage among viewers by declaring that Hillary Clinton had not approved the sale of the mines and that the owner’s donations preceded the deal by three years.22

Shepard Smith wouldn’t reach his conclusion about the Clinton Foundation until a year after the 2016 election. The lag between fiction and fact was something that Steve Bannon and his chosen candidate, Republican front-runner Donald Trump, had always planned to exploit. Both men were first-rate propagandists with deep experience manipulating both the press and public perception. Trump had first peddled his fake biography—young real estate mogul—to The New York Times in 1976. The result was a lengthy profile that announced that a trust fund baby who had never begun, let alone finished, a project was a visionary with movie star looks who was worth $200 million. The most prestigious media source in the country even let his father declare, as if a proud papa’s evaluation meant anything, that “Donald is the smartest person I know.”
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:21 pm

pmward wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:45 pm
By the way I should also mention I think Biden has taken this whole thing very well considering. He has said he wishes he could begin his transition officially, but that he is willing to be patient and that he is not going to try to fight for it in the courts. He is not trying to fight Trump in a social media PR blitz. He doesn't seem to feel any need to defend himself. He doesn't really seem phased in any real way by all of Trumps accusations and actions. He is really just kind of sitting back, doing the best he can with what is available, and letting the evidence speak for itself. All things considered, I think that the way he has handled this craziness is admirable. You know Trump wouldn't show that kind of patience, low-key confidence, and restraint if the roles were reversed. The difference in professionalism between Biden and Trump is striking.
How ironic I say this just a couple hours ago. Biden just got the go ahead for the official transition to begin.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Ad Orientem » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:24 pm

pmward wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:21 pm
pmward wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:45 pm
By the way I should also mention I think Biden has taken this whole thing very well considering. He has said he wishes he could begin his transition officially, but that he is willing to be patient and that he is not going to try to fight for it in the courts. He is not trying to fight Trump in a social media PR blitz. He doesn't seem to feel any need to defend himself. He doesn't really seem phased in any real way by all of Trumps accusations and actions. He is really just kind of sitting back, doing the best he can with what is available, and letting the evidence speak for itself. All things considered, I think that the way he has handled this craziness is admirable. You know Trump wouldn't show that kind of patience, low-key confidence, and restraint if the roles were reversed. The difference in professionalism between Biden and Trump is striking.
How ironic I say this just a couple hours ago. Biden just got the go ahead for the official transition to begin.

I just saw a report that Mr. Trump, while refusing to concede, has given permission for his people to begin formal cooperation with the incoming administration. That's probably as much as we can hope for between now and January 20.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:39 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:24 pm
pmward wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:21 pm
pmward wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:45 pm
By the way I should also mention I think Biden has taken this whole thing very well considering. He has said he wishes he could begin his transition officially, but that he is willing to be patient and that he is not going to try to fight for it in the courts. He is not trying to fight Trump in a social media PR blitz. He doesn't seem to feel any need to defend himself. He doesn't really seem phased in any real way by all of Trumps accusations and actions. He is really just kind of sitting back, doing the best he can with what is available, and letting the evidence speak for itself. All things considered, I think that the way he has handled this craziness is admirable. You know Trump wouldn't show that kind of patience, low-key confidence, and restraint if the roles were reversed. The difference in professionalism between Biden and Trump is striking.
How ironic I say this just a couple hours ago. Biden just got the go ahead for the official transition to begin.

I just saw a report that Mr. Trump, while refusing to concede, has given permission for his people to begin formal cooperation with the incoming administration. That's probably as much as we can hope for between now and January 20.
I'm not surprised on the refusal to concede. I mean we all knew back in 2017 that if he lost in 2020 he wouldn't concede. Doesn't matter the circumstances. That's just the kind of classy guy he is.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:39 pm

Don wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm

The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
My theory on stuff like that is that lots of people all over the world believe the ends justify the means. They believe in the nobility of their cause so much that it doesn't matter what it takes to achieve it. I think those people are much more likely to identify as liberals or democrats because that group is all about achieving some social "good" (equality or whatever, nobody having their feelings hurt etc.) at ANY cost. Violence, fraud, theft, are all justifiable to get what they want. They see Trump as so evil for some reason that to them it's morally wrong NOT to commit fraud or violence to get him out.

The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:47 pm

I never block posters on forums because i disagree with them. Without disagreement the conversation gets boring. I block people who i think are trolling for fun.

As for the voting fraud. At this point if someone thinks the election was legit i have to think they're playing a game with themselves and with others. They will claim everyone else who sees the obvious stuff is just being ideological. That is a tried and true tactic. Accuse others of your own issues.

Trump is no conservative and he's not a free market guy. He doesn't stand for the constitution and what not. But damn if he didn't wipe the floor with old Joe. He beat him so bad the fraud that was needed is obvious enough for a third of dems to admit it!
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:48 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:42 am
SomeDude wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:24 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:15 am

Just block the lunatics and it will look as it did before.
I've looked around but i don't see how to do that. Can you give me a quick tip please? It's necessary on every forum to not feed the trolls. Thanks
Click on the user's name in the left column to view their profile. Then click 'add foe'.

Btw, welcome to the forum.
Thanks!!!! I promise to use those powers only for good!
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Ad Orientem » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:49 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:39 pm
Don wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm

The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
...The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.

Except... most of that never happened outside of the fever swamps of the internet. If it did, Trump's lawyers would have walked into court with so much evidence they would have needed an army of staff to carry in the boxes of paper records and digital records. Instead they walked into court holding their dicks, and that was about it. That's why Trump and his lawyers have been laughed out of court, over and over again, by both liberal and conservative judges... until yesterday when the judge in PA finally had enough and told them off. The lack of crowds at Biden's events was deliberate. He insisted on social distancing and most of his events were drive ins. Unlike Trump's that were basically biological warfare attacks on his own supporters/staff and Secret Service.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:18 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:49 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:39 pm
Don wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm

The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
...The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.

Except... most of that never happened outside of the fever swamps of the internet. If it did, Trump's lawyers would have walked into court with so much evidence they would have needed an army of staff to carry in the boxes of paper records and digital records. Instead they walked into court holding their dicks, and that was about it.
I thought they have hundreds of affidavits of people testifying they were obstructed from observing the ballots, being told to back date ballots, observing batches of ballots being run over and over, video footage millions of people have now seen showing workers filling out ballots with ummmm.....just one name on them, crazy things like 80k votes with only Biden's name on them in GA and just 700 like that for Trump, multiple instances of ballots found that favor Trump that were misplaced on election night on some flash drives, biden winning 100% of the votes of people over 120 years old. The list goes on and on.

Courts ruling against Trump is not evidence of anything, Republican or not. The Republican establishment hate Trump and love Biden. Biden is a swamp creature through and through. As Sidney Powell is pointing out, a lot of the fraud has also helped Republicans.

Did you see the public threats against the Michigan republicans in Wayne country to coerce them to certify? People were saying "i know where your kids go to school". What did you think is being said to these judges behind closed doors?

Nothing was ever going to happen with the court cases at the state level. I've seen Trump's lawyers say that from the start. They had to start the legal fight somewhere. This fight will be to see what the state legislators do with the electoral college or with the Supremes.

I'm curious.......why do you think 1/3 of democrats think the election was rigged? I bet it's a lot more than believed the russian Facebook ads cost Hillary the election! 😂 talk about a conspiracy theory!
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:10 am

SomeDude wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:39 pm
Don wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm

The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
My theory on stuff like that is that lots of people all over the world believe the ends justify the means. They believe in the nobility of their cause so much that it doesn't matter what it takes to achieve it. I think those people are much more likely to identify as liberals or democrats because that group is all about achieving some social "good" (equality or whatever, nobody having their feelings hurt etc.) at ANY cost. Violence, fraud, theft, are all justifiable to get what they want. They see Trump as so evil for some reason that to them it's morally wrong NOT to commit fraud or violence to get him out.

The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.
Why have these "facts" not made it into court? Oh that's right, because they aren't true and Trump would be tried for perjury if he submitted them. The moment these things get submitted and accepted into court we can discuss them. Until then, it's purely conjecture, your argument is laughably weak, and it has no legs at all to stand on. Accusation is not guilt. You need to prove guilt. Your argument does not prove guilt in any way. If/when there is evidence that proves guilt, I will agree with you. Until that point, sorry to tell you but nobody here that hasn't drank the Trump Kool-Aide (aka Tech and Don) takes your argument seriously. The real, legally submitted evidence (or lack thereof) is my opinion. Unless the evidence changes, my opinion doesn't change.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:53 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:36 am

However, arguing with stage 4 TDS victims is like arguing with a washing machine.
This is a very good point. I usually equate it to yelling at a rain cloud to stop raining.

Lots of people on forums are not very serious and will troll around for fun, taking nonsensical positions. I try to mute them as quickly as possible to avoid feeding them (internet rule #1). Keeps the conversations more productive and less combative, which starves trolls looking to get a rise out of people with outrageous posts.

In the era of Trump we have people suffering TDS that appear to be trolling but aren't. I think the only way to tell which one they are is by looking at non-political posts. So I have no idea who is who yet.

On a side note I have no problem with people who don't like Trump. I married a woman this year who voted for Hillary because she couldn't get over the "grab 'em by the kitty cat thing". We've talked a lot about the man this year and I'm proud to say she voted for him and was all-in.

The irony is I like Trump personally, the way he speaks and acts, I truly think he's a good man with good intentions and is personally charming and all that. It's that he's such a liberal and democract at heart that bothers me which is funny because the dems all have TDS. 16 years ago his platform would have been left of Gore's probably.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:57 am

^^^^ ...the embodiment of all that is wrong in our country succinctly rolled into one post!
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:00 am

Lol, this is hilarious...Some Dude and Tech have created their own little forum where they can stroke Trump's nuts without harassment from trolling doodles. Lololol
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:02 am

Ok heres my theory...some dude is techs imaginary friend who he created to have pleasant conversations with about Trump.
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