Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:04 pm

Yes, Christie is calling it a national embarrassment....yet the believers still believing. Its religious at this point.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Ad Orientem » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:05 pm

I prefer the term cultish.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:35 pm

2016 campaign clearly stolen from Hillary!

From the book I finished tonight...there is far, far more in the book. All reveals how despicable many on the right are and how gullible are many of their supporters.

Vinny

Alexandra Krylova and Anna Vladislavovna Bogacheva learned about purple states, which sometimes vote for the “red” GOP and sometimes go for “blue” Democrats, on a coast-to-coast tour of America in the spring of 2014. For two young Russians with eager minds, this business trip must have been the adventure of a lifetime. They visited nine states, from California to New York, recording and absorbing all they could about American politics. Before they flew home, they dumped the burner phones they had bought for secret communication.

After they returned to Saint Petersburg, Krylova and Bogacheva reported to their office at the Internet Research Agency, which occupied a blocky four-story building at 55 Savushkina Street. The IRA, which employees also called the Factory, was established by an ally of Vladimir Putin named Yevgeny V. Prigozhin. Once imprisoned for robbery and prostitution, Prigozhin had grown immensely wealthy thanks to government contracts awarded to his main businesses, Concord Management and Consulting and Concord Catering. These entities oversaw the Factory, which was staffed by bright young Russians who were paid well for work that depended on their creative skills. The purpose of this work, which involved flooding YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter with posts, wasn’t always obvious, but the perspective was clear from the start. As one writer named Alexei would recall, he was hired after he was asked to write a persuasive essay about a conspiracy theory, first described in a novel, that imagined an American-led Cold War campaign to destroy Soviet society. This dark fantasy had been revived after the collapse of the Soviet Union and was so widely known that anyone with skill could spin a story about it on command.1

Dozens of Alexeis awaited Krylova and Bogacheva, who spilled out the knowledge they had acquired and began to organize a big new initiative called Project Translator. Eventually staffed by ninety people, the goal, according to an internal memo, was to disrupt American politics by spreading “distrust toward the candidates and the political system in general.” Soon, the place was humming, twenty-four hours a day, with the production of blog posts, video, tweets, and commentaries. Project Translator writers worked under thousands of false American identities and created online groups with names such as “secured borders” and “Blacktivist” and “Army of Jesus.” Others at the Internet Research Agency focused on Russian society, building up Vladimir Putin and stoking outrage about the United States. One typical domestic post invented the “news” that Americans were obsessed with a new video game with a slavery theme. This narrative would have been familiar to anyone who knew about the propaganda produced by the KGB during the Soviet era. Racism in America was a favorite topic for the Soviets, who used it to counter criticism of their country’s suppression of civil rights.2

Although creating general political mayhem was its original purpose, Project Translator soon calibrated its efforts to damage Hillary Clinton’s chance in the 2016 elections. Some fake influencers like Blacktivist were tuned to discourage those who might support Clinton from getting involved in her campaign or even voting. “No Lives Matter To Hillary Clinton. Only Votes Matter To Hillary Clinton,” announced one Blacktivist post. Others boosted her main rival for the Democratic Party’s nomination, Vermont senator Bernie Sanders. However, the biggest volume of material was designed to spread false information about Clinton in a way that would sway fence-sitting voters against and amplify the antagonism of those who already detested her. A Russian poster called Being Patriotic wrote, for example, “Hillary Clinton is the co-author of Obama’s anti-police and anti-Constitutional propaganda!”

Functionally equivalent to an online marketing campaign for a political candidate or party, Project Translator used corny graphics and flawed grammar to mimic the kind of messages that might be posted by motivated American citizens. This fake authenticity, projected by thousands of fake personalities, would prompt more than thirty million people to share the dispatches from the Factory with their online friends. The Russians also seized on new issues as they arose, sending out posts that boosted the efforts of the many well-funded and freelance antagonists who had made it their mission to attack Hillary Clinton. Books like the prolific Ed Klein’s latest harangue, Unlikeable, proliferated as various writers and their financial backers sought to create a thematic foundation for other forms of media—like the Mercer-funded CNS News, Fox News, and Breitbart, as well as conservative newcomers like the website the Independent Journal Review. Typical of IJR.com was an item titled “13 Extremely Vulgar Comments That Came Out of the Mouth of Hillary Clinton,” which included material from discredited sources in arguing that Hillary Clinton was a profane shrew. Its author, Kyle Becker, has studied Russian and Russian literature and was an alumnus of the right-wing Heritage Foundation’s youth leadership program. He would eventually be suspended for fabricating a conspiracy theory story about Barack Obama but would move on to Fox News, where he would work as a producer.3

Many new online operations like IJR.com, which sprang to life as the election neared, functioned without the old-fashioned regard for the fact-checking and fairness that were still practiced by the mainstream media. This was natural given that many were created by political activists and not journalists. The fact that they rejected the old rules was what lent them greater credibility among readers and viewers who had been persuaded that the mainstream media—often expressed as “the MSM”—where fact-checkers and lawyers were employed to keep journalists honest, was corrupt and unreliable. The key to their success was providing reinforcement of preexisting bias—in this case, “Hillary Clinton is awful”—with provocative snippets that kept people coming back for more. This clickbait produced revenue from advertisers who paid every time someone opened a new web page.4

The publication of a book was a news event in and of itself, especially if it offered juicy bits that could be flung at eager readers and viewers like chicken feed scattered in a yard. The fact that these items came packaged in hardcovers lent them extra respectability, and if the anecdotes, quotes, and arguments were especially provocative, editors and producers clamored to pay for excerpts or to trade lavish displays on their websites or programs. Authors received advertising that leveraged whatever goodwill came under the banner of a Breitbart or Fox. Viewers, readers, and listeners whose appetites were whetted by a promise of what a book might reveal were more likely to part with the $29.99, the going rate for a hardcover, to get more.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by glennds » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:14 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:58 pm
... So far Trump and his surrogates have been almost invariably laughed out of court. Last night was an exception. The judge was not laughing. This judge, a member of the conservative Federalist Society, all but accused Trump's lawyers of lying to the court and attempting to disenfranchise an entire state. His opinion has been described as scathing.
You know what this means don't you?
The courts are rigged.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by glennds » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:18 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:35 pm
2016 campaign clearly stolen from Hillary!

From the book I finished tonight...there is far, far more in the book. All reveals how despicable many on the right are and how gullible are many of their supporters.

Vinny

Vinny,
Is the book Hiding In Plain Sight by Sarah Kendzior?
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:24 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:15 am

Just block the lunatics and it will look as it did before.
I've looked around but i don't see how to do that. Can you give me a quick tip please? It's necessary on every forum to not feed the trolls. Thanks
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:07 am

Twitter critics went into overdrive on Sunday after the Trump campaign distanced itself from lawyer and conspiracy theorist Sidney Powell, just days after she appeared front and center at a press conference hosted by President Donald Trump’s personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani and his campaign’s legal team.

“Sidney Powell is practicing law on her own,” Giuliani and campaign lawyer Jenna Ellis said in a statement. “She is not a member of the Trump Legal Team. She is also not a lawyer for the President in his personal capacity.”
This dude coming on the forum and immediately asking how to ignore people. Lol
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:54 am

Simonjester wrote:
doodle wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:07 am
This dude coming on the forum and immediately asking how to ignore people. Lol
no sudden dawning of self awareness regarding the type of posts that are driving people to find the block button? or awareness of how badly these type of posts have lowered the level of discourse?
Dude posts this...

I'd give Biden less than a 10% chance of taking office. The fraud is so obvious, i don't think the Republican state legislatures in these battleground states will direct the electors to vote for him. I think it's more likely this doesn't even get to the Supreme court.

Sidney Powell is a beast.
What does he expect when he makes a claim like that? Sidney Powell is such a beast that Trump just walked away from her.

A large portion of the Republican party is presently engaged in process of attempting to overthrow our democratic process. They should be treated with disdain.

Love it or leave it...isn't that what they say?
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:21 am

Of course, our democratic process is flawed. There has been no evidence of fraud at the voting booths however. The scam has been in the making for years and is in plain sight. The perpetrator is our incredibly dysfunctional information systems which on both the left and the right have been peddling propaganda and misinformation for years. Propaganda so intense that North Korea probably is taking notes. Both sides eat it up.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:34 am

I thought this was a very good comment from another blog site:

"I'm shocked how fast the Trump crowd turned on Tucker Carlson. After years of being cited as perhaps the best host on TV, he is suddenly persona non grata for saying that Powell didn't want to provide any evidence on his show.

This illustrates how cult-like US politics (particularly in Trump's corner) has become. It's not enough to agree 98% of the time with someone, it needs to be TOTAL lockstep. Anything less makes you a Satanic communist. It's completely crazy!"
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:49 am

So is the right now eating itself too?
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:51 am

But, then...Giuliani and Trump Inc. walked away from Powell...so maybe they should be devoured as well. Maybe Trump isn't even Trump enough!
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:57 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:34 am
I thought this was a very good comment from another blog site:

"I'm shocked how fast the Trump crowd turned on Tucker Carlson. After years of being cited as perhaps the best host on TV, he is suddenly persona non grata for saying that Powell didn't want to provide any evidence on his show.

This illustrates how cult-like US politics (particularly in Trump's corner) has become. It's not enough to agree 98% of the time with someone, it needs to be TOTAL lockstep. Anything less makes you a Satanic communist. It's completely crazy!"
Yeah I agree. It's pretty scary when having a differing opinion results in being shunned. See the debate in the other thread last week about "tyranny of the majority" as this is a fitting example happening within the Republican Party. I think this actually works against the Republican Party in the end. If they keep shunning their own, the very people they depend on for votes, casting anyone who isn't super far extreme right as "RINO's", and publicly shunning and rejecting them... how does this not wind up in fewer Republicans and Republican votes in the future? How does telling people they are not allowed to think for themselves and have to accept the leaders narrative 100% or be disowned attract new Republicans? All the moderate Republicans are basically being told they need to conform to the populist extreme or GTFO. A good chunk of those will take the GTFO option. This whole strategy just seems so short sighted. I feel like Trump is putting himself above his party. It's going to take a long time for the Republican Party to clean up the mess that Trump is leaving them with.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by glennds » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:02 am

Simonjester wrote:
doodle wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:07 am
This dude coming on the forum and immediately asking how to ignore people. Lol
no sudden dawning of self awareness regarding the type of posts that are driving people to find the block button? or awareness of how badly these type of posts have lowered the level of discourse?
I can totally understand blocking someone who is consistently inflammatory or obnoxious, but speaking only for myself, I value hearing differing points of view from my own. And more importantly, understanding the the thought process behind them, or sometimes confirming the lack of a thought process.

If someone simply blocks out everyone who doesn't agree with them, they have basically created a self-reinforcing echo chamber.
Of course, keeping it civil is important.
Could you imagine if this forum ended up with two or more tribes that blocked out everyone except their fellow tribe members? Is that what's happening in society?
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:04 am

It's also funny in a way, how for years people have been focusing on the divide between the extreme populists and moderates in the Democratic Party, and wondering how they could hold the ship together. But somehow, they managed to hold it together (likely just uniting under the common hatred of Trump) while the Republican Party quietly became the "boat" who's hull is starting to be torn apart in a battle between extreme populists and moderates.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by l82start » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:12 am

i am not personally in favor of blocking, however there is a dramatic difference between intelligent debate and trolling, and the trolls don't add to the debate ... they wont be missed by those who no longer see their posts..

blocking a poster is a personal choice, i hope the frustration with trolls and the attack posts doesn't lead to tribal blocking, or to the blocking of posters who are in the majority posting intelligent commentary on either side. even if some of the partisans that normally post quality do get carried away by the moment and cross into "shit post " territory..
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by AdamA » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:14 am

drumminj wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:25 am
sophie wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:14 am
Wow, what's happened to this forum? It used to be a place filled with intelligent, well thought out discussions on a wide range of topics. Now it's an echo chamber where the crazies reign supreme.
I've gotten the same impression, and honestly stopped reading here for the past few weeks. The folks engaging in diatribes and personal attacks seem to be drowning out the rest.
I think that's why when Craig initially setup the forum he had a "no politics" rule.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by vnatale » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:18 am

glennds wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:18 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:35 pm
2016 campaign clearly stolen from Hillary!

From the book I finished tonight...there is far, far more in the book. All reveals how despicable many on the right are and how gullible are many of their supporters.

Vinny

Vinny,
Is the book Hiding In Plain Sight by Sarah Kendzior?
No. I realized later I should have disclosed. This is it:
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (59.02 KiB) Viewed 4028 times

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:19 am

Simonjester wrote:
doodle wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:07 am
This dude coming on the forum and immediately asking how to ignore people. Lol
no sudden dawning of self awareness regarding the type of posts that are driving people to find the block button? or awareness of how badly these type of posts have lowered the level of discourse?
If lunatics had self-awareness, they wouldn't be lunatics.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by vnatale » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:21 am

pmward wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:57 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:34 am
I thought this was a very good comment from another blog site:

"I'm shocked how fast the Trump crowd turned on Tucker Carlson. After years of being cited as perhaps the best host on TV, he is suddenly persona non grata for saying that Powell didn't want to provide any evidence on his show.

This illustrates how cult-like US politics (particularly in Trump's corner) has become. It's not enough to agree 98% of the time with someone, it needs to be TOTAL lockstep. Anything less makes you a Satanic communist. It's completely crazy!"
Yeah I agree. It's pretty scary when having a differing opinion results in being shunned. See the debate in the other thread last week about "tyranny of the majority" as this is a fitting example happening within the Republican Party. I think this actually works against the Republican Party in the end. If they keep shunning their own, the very people they depend on for votes, casting anyone who isn't super far extreme right as "RINO's", and publicly shunning and rejecting them... how does this not wind up in fewer Republicans and Republican votes in the future? How does telling people they are not allowed to think for themselves and have to accept the leaders narrative 100% or be disowned attract new Republicans? All the moderate Republicans are basically being told they need to conform to the populist extreme or GTFO. A good chunk of those will take the GTFO option. This whole strategy just seems so short sighted. I feel like Trump is putting himself above his party. It's going to take a long time for the Republican Party to clean up the mess that Trump is leaving them with.
It is NOT just YOUR feeling. Trump ALWAYS puts his own individual interests above ALL ELSE. ALWAYS!

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by sophie » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:29 am

AdamA wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:14 am
I think that's why when Craig initially setup the forum he had a "no politics" rule.
He did? I didn't know that. It was certainly not evident by the time I joined.

In the current situation though, you'd have a hard time blocking the medical/health aspects of current politics. As I recall, there were a LOT of very controversial health related threads in the past. Also, most political discussions were abstract commentaries on things like libertarianism, the Fed, etc. So unbelievably civil now, in retrospect.

If we had a debate on Trump-style populism rather than the exclusive focus of certain forum members on Trump himself, that would be potentially of interest. I just don't see it happening though. It's not really politics that's driving this, it's the sheer malevolence of those posters, and complete disregard of any point of view that might not be fully consistent with that malevolent set of opinions.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:32 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:19 am
Simonjester wrote:
doodle wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:07 am
This dude coming on the forum and immediately asking how to ignore people. Lol
no sudden dawning of self awareness regarding the type of posts that are driving people to find the block button? or awareness of how badly these type of posts have lowered the level of discourse?
If lunatics had self-awareness, they wouldn't be lunatics.
He once again proves his own point!
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:35 am

sophie wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:29 am
If we had a debate on Trump-style populism rather than the exclusive focus of certain forum members on Trump himself, that would be potentially of interest. I just don't see it happening though. It's not really politics that's driving this, it's the sheer malevolence of those posters, and complete disregard of any point of view that might not be fully consistent with that malevolent set of opinions.
I would be down for that discussion. Admittedly, my dislike for Trump is stronger than my dislike for his policies (though I strongly dislike his isolationist, tariff, and anti-immigration policies, and believe they are bad for our economy and country).
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:45 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:40 am
sophie wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:29 am
AdamA wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:14 am
I think that's why when Craig initially setup the forum he had a "no politics" rule.
He did? I didn't know that. It was certainly not evident by the time I joined.

In the current situation though, you'd have a hard time blocking the medical/health aspects of current politics. As I recall, there were a LOT of very controversial health related threads in the past. Also, most political discussions were abstract commentaries on things like libertarianism, the Fed, etc. So unbelievably civil now, in retrospect.

If we had a debate on Trump-style populism rather than the exclusive focus of certain forum members on Trump himself, that would be potentially of interest. I just don't see it happening though. It's not really politics that's driving this, it's the sheer malevolence of those posters, and complete disregard of any point of view that might not be fully consistent with that malevolent set of opinions.
I think a discussion of the etiology of TDS might be interesting, although of course blocking the usual suspects will be not only desirable but essential, as they obviously will try to overrun any such discussion.

But you've omitted a possibly small definitely but important point, which is that TDS isn't just about Trump himself, but anyone who supports him in any way or even isn't completely onboard with hatred for him.

For those with stage 4 TDS, anyone like that should be driven from society. Here's just one example, although there are many:

https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/202 ... rosecuted/

It's really astounding that a significant fraction of a supposedly civilized society can have such an opinion.
The opposite is once again true (he is batting 1.000 today). THS (Tinfoil Hat Syndrome) is when someone on the "right" hates all people that dislike Trump, including but not limited to blocking everyone who states an opinion that in any way is different than Trump's, labelling anyone who does not like Trump as "level 4 TDS", believing that there was some "deep state" conspiracy, and a delusional unwillingness to come to terms with the reality that Trump lost the election. I would say Tech himself qualifies for "level 4" THS.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by sophie » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:57 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:40 am
But you've omitted a possibly small definitely but important point, which is that TDS isn't just about Trump himself, but anyone who supports him in any way or even isn't completely onboard with hatred for him.
Well, those are sort of wrapped up in what I intended to say, yes.

I have absolutely learned that simply stating that I agree about the nastiness of Trump's tweets and his irritatingly constant need for self-congratulation isn't sufficient to appease these folks, because I THEN go on to say that I consider all this less important than his policies (i.e. "Trump-ism" if you will). That does not satisfy the ravening beast, which requires a deep, unconditional and absolute hatred to the exclusion of all other considerations. My mind just doesn't work that way.

That's what borderline personality disorder is all about: an inability to see shades of gray, and a strong tendency to divide the world into people that are hated or loved - with nothing in between. That also explains the love affair with Biden, who I recognize is more polished but who is also an unscrupulous creep. And Kamala Harris is the original "Mean Girl" and I suspect would be no better than Trump in building a bipartisan consensus. Not saying the trolls/lunatics/whatever you call them meet criteria for BPD, but it sure is hard not to think of that possibility.

Actually tech I'd really rather discuss Trump-style populism, as a very enticing and likely successful way forward for the Republican Party. Could we? I'd really enjoy that.
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