Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:02 am

Ok heres my theory...some dude is techs imaginary friend who he created to have pleasant conversations with about Trump.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:17 am

pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:10 am
SomeDude wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:39 pm
Don wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm

The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
My theory on stuff like that is that lots of people all over the world believe the ends justify the means. They believe in the nobility of their cause so much that it doesn't matter what it takes to achieve it. I think those people are much more likely to identify as liberals or democrats because that group is all about achieving some social "good" (equality or whatever, nobody having their feelings hurt etc.) at ANY cost. Violence, fraud, theft, are all justifiable to get what they want. They see Trump as so evil for some reason that to them it's morally wrong NOT to commit fraud or violence to get him out.

The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.
Why have these "facts" not made it into court? Oh that's right, because they aren't true and Trump would be tried for perjury if he submitted them. The moment these things get submitted and accepted into court we can discuss them. Until then, it's purely conjecture, your argument is laughably weak, and it has no legs at all to stand on. Accusation is not guilt. You need to prove guilt. Your argument does not prove guilt in any way. If/when there is evidence that proves guilt, I will agree with you. Until that point, sorry to tell you but nobody here that hasn't drank the Trump Kool-Aide (aka Tech and Don) takes your argument seriously. The real, legally submitted evidence (or lack thereof) is my opinion. Unless the evidence changes, my opinion doesn't change.
Do you really believe Biden-Kamala got 10M more votes than Obama in 2012? Biden did much worse with non-whites, worse in FL and Ohio, and basically every state and area outside of these major cities in the swing states where they kicked out all the observers.

Do you really believe the Biden-Harris vote totals in Philly, Detroit, Atl, Pittsburg are legitimate? Why would they kick out the republican observers if there was no funny business? Why would turn-out in those cities be completely disproportionate to anywhere else in the country? Why would there be hundreds of thousands of votes that show up late in massive batches that are 100% for Biden, and just have his name and none of the down ballot ticket selected?

This just scratches the surface. I'm hopeful the mountains of evidence they are gathering (which would probably take years normally to compile), will make it impossible for the Supremes to ignore like these state judges, and the "results" in these states will be thrown out.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by vnatale » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:21 am

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:17 am
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:10 am
SomeDude wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:39 pm
Don wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm

The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
My theory on stuff like that is that lots of people all over the world believe the ends justify the means. They believe in the nobility of their cause so much that it doesn't matter what it takes to achieve it. I think those people are much more likely to identify as liberals or democrats because that group is all about achieving some social "good" (equality or whatever, nobody having their feelings hurt etc.) at ANY cost. Violence, fraud, theft, are all justifiable to get what they want. They see Trump as so evil for some reason that to them it's morally wrong NOT to commit fraud or violence to get him out.

The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.
Why have these "facts" not made it into court? Oh that's right, because they aren't true and Trump would be tried for perjury if he submitted them. The moment these things get submitted and accepted into court we can discuss them. Until then, it's purely conjecture, your argument is laughably weak, and it has no legs at all to stand on. Accusation is not guilt. You need to prove guilt. Your argument does not prove guilt in any way. If/when there is evidence that proves guilt, I will agree with you. Until that point, sorry to tell you but nobody here that hasn't drank the Trump Kool-Aide (aka Tech and Don) takes your argument seriously. The real, legally submitted evidence (or lack thereof) is my opinion. Unless the evidence changes, my opinion doesn't change.
Do you really believe Biden-Kamala got 10M more votes than Obama in 2012? Biden did much worse with non-whites, worse in FL and Ohio, and basically every state and area outside of these major cities in the swing states where they kicked out all the observers.

Do you really believe the Biden-Harris vote totals in Philly, Detroit, Atl, Pittsburg are legitimate? Why would they kick out the republican observers if there was no funny business? Why would turn-out in those cities be completely disproportionate to anywhere else in the country? Why would there be hundreds of thousands of votes that show up late in massive batches that are 100% for Biden, and just have his name and none of the down ballot ticket selected?

This just scratches the surface. I'm hopeful the mountains of evidence they are gathering (which would probably take years normally to compile), will make it impossible for the Supremes to ignore like these state judges, and the "results" in these states will be thrown out.
How do you explain the many non-presidential elections on all levels won by the Republicans?

Were the tampered or fraudulent ballots only done so for the presidential elections and NONE of the other elections?

That is a basic question that needs to be satisfactorily answered by anyone believing the presidential election was stolen. Why stop there? Why not steal lots of other ones?

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:29 am

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:17 am
Do you really believe Biden-Kamala got 10M more votes than Obama in 2012? Biden did much worse with non-whites, worse in FL and Ohio, and basically every state and area outside of these major cities in the swing states where they kicked out all the observers.

Do you really believe the Biden-Harris vote totals in Philly, Detroit, Atl, Pittsburg are legitimate? Why would they kick out the republican observers if there was no funny business? Why would turn-out in those cities be completely disproportionate to anywhere else in the country? Why would there be hundreds of thousands of votes that show up late in massive batches that are 100% for Biden, and just have his name and none of the down ballot ticket selected?

This just scratches the surface. I'm hopeful the mountains of evidence they are gathering (which would probably take years normally to compile), will make it impossible for the Supremes to ignore like these state judges, and the "results" in these states will be thrown out.
This is all opinion and conjecture. No proof, as such it's a weak argument that we all can (and will) dismiss instantly.

Look, if accusations were against Trump I would not believe them unless there was real proof. Likewise, when there are accusations against Biden, I will not believe them unless there is proof. Innocent until proven guilty. The ball is in Trump's court to bring evidence of guilt. If he cannot do that, that in itself is proof of innocence in the American justice system. Until there is real legally submitted proof, you're just wasting your breath. These baseless arguments are not going to change anybodies opinion here. What would change everyone's opinion here? Proof submitted, accepted and found guilty in court. Anything short of that is not good enough... just like it wouldn't have been good enough if the roles were reversed and it was accusations against Trump.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:31 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:21 am
How do you explain the many non-presidential elections on all levels won by the Republicans?

Were the tampered or fraudulent ballots only done so for the presidential elections and NONE of the other elections?

That is a basic question that needs to be satisfactorily answered by anyone believing the presidential election was stolen. Why stop there? Why not steal lots of other ones?

Vinny
Who's to say they didn't steal a lot more?

Republicans winning back a lot of seats and holding the Senate despite having twice as many seats up for grabs is an argument that there WAS fraud at the presidential level, not against it.

Unless you believe one of these things:

1. Republican voters turned out in record numbers to enthusiastically vote for their congress people and senators who they love so much but decided to vote for Harris-biden as well.

2. Democrats and liberals came out in record numbers to vote for Harris-biden (millions more than for Obama), but then broke for republicans or otherwise ignored the down ballot races.

Those scenarios seem like wild conspiracy theories to me. Which one of them do you think happened?

Occam's razor - it's much more likely the down ballot stuff had less fraud. If there was too much fraud in the small races that are much more easily verifiable, audits of votes in congressional districts would put the obvious fraud at the presidential level at great risk.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:35 am

I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:38 am

pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:29 am

This is all opinion and conjecture. No proof, as such it's a weak argument that we all can (and will) dismiss instantly.
Did you see the videos of republican observers standing outside polling places while "votes" were being "counted"? Did you see the boards being put up to block observation?

What is that proof of?

If I see a guy standing over a murder victim with the bloody knife in his hand and he's publicly stated he wants to murder him, do I need video proof of the actual stabbing? Actually I think they have videos of ballot counters filling out ballots (just the presidential race of course).
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:40 am

pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:35 am
I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.
Well let's bring it back to the topic. What do you think is driving the large number of Dems to think the election was stolen from Trump? Virtually all the media, and even a good portion of FOX keep saying there is no evidence and the election was secure and just.

What is causing so many people to doubt the results? Do you think Dems are just getting Trump's twitter feed and believing it?
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:43 am

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:40 am
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:35 am
I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.
Well let's bring it back to the topic. What do you think is driving the large number of Dems to think the election was stolen from Trump? Virtually all the media, and even a good portion of FOX keep saying there is no evidence and the election was secure and just.

What is causing so many people to doubt the results? Do you think Dems are just getting Trump's twitter feed and believing it?
I don't care. Opinion is not fact. What someone thinks happened has no bearing on what actually did (or did not) happen. I also don't trust studies put out on media. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" and all that.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:46 am

pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:43 am
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:40 am
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:35 am
I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.
Well let's bring it back to the topic. What do you think is driving the large number of Dems to think the election was stolen from Trump? Virtually all the media, and even a good portion of FOX keep saying there is no evidence and the election was secure and just.

What is causing so many people to doubt the results? Do you think Dems are just getting Trump's twitter feed and believing it?
I don't care. Opinion is not fact. What someone thinks happened has no bearing on what actually did (or did not) happen. I also don't trust studies put out on media. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" and all that.
Ahhhhh. My mistake. I thought we were discussing why so many dems think Trump got cheated.

Well cheers to having the facts come out. I hope we can all agree if there was fraud it's important to get to the bottom of it. If a group of criminals is trying to get complete control of the government through fraud and intimidation, they sure as heck do not have good things planned for us.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:54 am

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:46 am
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:43 am
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:40 am
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:35 am
I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.
Well let's bring it back to the topic. What do you think is driving the large number of Dems to think the election was stolen from Trump? Virtually all the media, and even a good portion of FOX keep saying there is no evidence and the election was secure and just.

What is causing so many people to doubt the results? Do you think Dems are just getting Trump's twitter feed and believing it?
I don't care. Opinion is not fact. What someone thinks happened has no bearing on what actually did (or did not) happen. I also don't trust studies put out on media. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" and all that.
Ahhhhh. My mistake. I thought we were discussing why so many dems think Trump got cheated.

Well cheers to having the facts come out. I hope we can all agree if there was fraud it's important to get to the bottom of it. If a group of criminals is trying to get complete control of the government through fraud and intimidation, they sure as heck do not have good things planned for us.
When and how can we agree? Aren't judges government officials? Maybe they are in on it as well...I don't think any evidence will be enough to convince some. There is a flat earth society for a reason after all...no amount of evidence is enough to persuade some
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:55 am

Bottom line I have mentioned before to tech and sophie --

If Trump won, I would have dealt with it the best I could and not suspected fraud.

Ditto if Biden lost.

My sense is that there are people, on this forum and elsewhere in America, who will go to their graves believing the election was stolen from Trump. I truly feel bad for you, to have something like that gnawing at your soul constantly. I hope people can get over it at some point.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by vnatale » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:13 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:31 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:21 am
How do you explain the many non-presidential elections on all levels won by the Republicans?

Were the tampered or fraudulent ballots only done so for the presidential elections and NONE of the other elections?

That is a basic question that needs to be satisfactorily answered by anyone believing the presidential election was stolen. Why stop there? Why not steal lots of other ones?

Vinny
Who's to say they didn't steal a lot more?

Republicans winning back a lot of seats and holding the Senate despite having twice as many seats up for grabs is an argument that there WAS fraud at the presidential level, not against it.

Unless you believe one of these things:

1. Republican voters turned out in record numbers to enthusiastically vote for their congress people and senators who they love so much but decided to vote for Harris-biden as well.

2. Democrats and liberals came out in record numbers to vote for Harris-biden (millions more than for Obama), but then broke for republicans or otherwise ignored the down ballot races.

Those scenarios seem like wild conspiracy theories to me. Which one of them do you think happened?

Occam's razor - it's much more likely the down ballot stuff had less fraud. If there was too much fraud in the small races that are much more easily verifiable, audits of votes in congressional districts would put the obvious fraud at the presidential level at great risk.
You are correct. As I was writing what I wrote above the thought crossed my mind that a response could be that they actually did steal more. That the the Republicans winning so many elections was not in itself determinative. That if there had not been such widespread fraud that they would have won ever MORE elections. That would be all be consistent thinking. But I don't believe any of it.

What I believe?

What I heard a Republican say on C-Span during the last week make sense. This was a Republican who'd served in two Republican administrations. He did not believe that there was any election fraud of any consequence and that all the election results were valid. Under that assumption it says that a lot of people in this country like the Republican brand, policies. But also a lot of them just could not take another four years of Trump so they voted for the alternative.

This is exactly the question I'd asked here prior to the election. What voting groups were going to vote for him in a higher rate in 2020 than they had in 2016? I could not see any. All I could see that the ones who had voted for Obama prior had voted for Trump because of perceived change decided that he was not the type of change that they were seeking. There were definite consequences to the way he carried out his presidency. I do now acknowledge that there were some voting groups (blacks, Latinos?) who did vote at a higher rate for him in 2020 than 2016 but this increase was no where the decrease the from those he alienated (I believe this was the educated).

Vinny
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:24 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:13 pm
You are correct. As I was writing what I wrote above the thought crossed my mind that a response could be that they actually did steal more. That the the Republicans winning so many elections was not in itself determinative. That if there had not been such widespread fraud that they would have won ever MORE elections. That would be all be consistent thinking. But I don't believe any of it.

Vinny
[/quote]

Big ups for this Vinny. We don't have to agree on conclusions, but on consistent thinking if possible. I'll take a look at the rest of your post later.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:16 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:13 pm
What I heard a Republican say on C-Span during the last week make sense. This was a Republican who'd served in two Republican administrations. He did not believe that there was any election fraud of any consequence and that all the election results were valid. Under that assumption it says that a lot of people in this country like the Republican brand, policies. But also a lot of them just could not take another four years of Trump so they voted for the alternative.
Didn't he get more votes than any Republican ever? See I think Trump is wildly popular with Republicans, much more so than anyone else in that party. I can speak for myself personally, I voted for Trump in 2016 and that was literally the ONLY person I voted for. I was like one of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Harris-biden voters that didn't select anyone else. I did vote the state amendments. This year when I voted for Trump, for the first time in my life I voted for Republicans other than him (since he's not really one of them).

He was drawing massive crowds unlike anything even Regan could turn out, with 100 mile caravans or whatever for him.

See I think it's the exact opposite of what the guy on C-span said. Almost all of my friends are Republicans, and love Trump to the point we can't discuss it (since I'm not a big fan of him). They can't see how liberal and socialist he is, but love him like he's a free market guy. He got republicans to turn out big, resulting in them demolishing the "blue wave" the media kept hyping.

Sounds very silly to me to think people came out to vote the down ballot repukes and didn't go for Trump. Much more likely they came out BECAUSE of Trump, and Harris-biden have higher vote counts because there's lots of funny business in 5-6 key states, maybe more.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by vnatale » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:30 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:16 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:13 pm
What I heard a Republican say on C-Span during the last week make sense. This was a Republican who'd served in two Republican administrations. He did not believe that there was any election fraud of any consequence and that all the election results were valid. Under that assumption it says that a lot of people in this country like the Republican brand, policies. But also a lot of them just could not take another four years of Trump so they voted for the alternative.
Didn't he get more votes than any Republican ever? See I think Trump is wildly popular with Republicans, much more so than anyone else in that party. I can speak for myself personally, I voted for Trump in 2016 and that was literally the ONLY person I voted for. I was like one of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Harris-biden voters that didn't select anyone else. I did vote the state amendments. This year when I voted for Trump, for the first time in my life I voted for Republicans other than him (since he's not really one of them).

He was drawing massive crowds unlike anything even Regan could turn out, with 100 mile caravans or whatever for him.

See I think it's the exact opposite of what the guy on C-span said. Almost all of my friends are Republicans, and love Trump to the point we can't discuss it (since I'm not a big fan of him). They can't see how liberal and socialist he is, but love him like he's a free market guy. He got republicans to turn out big, resulting in them demolishing the "blue wave" the media kept hyping.

Sounds very silly to me to think people came out to vote the down ballot repukes and didn't go for Trump. Much more likely they came out BECAUSE of Trump, and Harris-biden have higher vote counts because there's lots of funny business in 5-6 key states, maybe more.
He may have got the second most votes ever.

He inspired votes on both sides. He inspired more of his true supporters to come out for him. But he also inspired all the Biden true supporters / Never Trumpers / Bernie former voters to come out. On top of that he inspired many of his form 2016 voters to also come out and vote for Biden to make sure they did not get a Trump repeat. He was by far the most polarizing president in my lifetime and what I just described would not be unexpected.

He also far outdrew Hillary in 2016 in terms of crowds (and, even more so in 2016 than 2020 since there were no virus impediments then). But just as like 2016, he failed to win the popular vote.

Finally, there is no disputing that Trump is wildly popular with Republicans.

However just grabbing this randomly from the internet..."In aggregate, 40% of all voters in party registration states are Democrats, 29% are Republicans, and 28% are independents. "...if true that points out that neither party wins with just their own. They need to collect a good percentage of those 28% independents. A lot of those independents DID vote for Trump in 2016 with their perception of who they thought he would be. After four years of seeing who he was, they decided, No thanks to a four year repeat.

I had one of those type people in my house last week. Voted for Trump in 2016. No way would vote for him in 2020.

Vinny
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:38 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:30 pm


I had one of those type people in my house last week. Voted for Trump in 2016. No way would vote for him in 2020.

Vinny
My boss' wife did that in AZ, so I give him hell for that every day. I flipped my wife over from Hillary, and so did another gal I work with since she got married and has kids and more income.

Ultimately this comes down to a few key states and what happened in them. Odd that Ohio would go crushingly for Trump, and MI/PA wouldn't. Very odd that FL would be a relatively easy win, where Trump was supposedly down in the polls, and he'd lose GA where he was supposedly polling up.

Very odd indeed :o

I wouldn't put the popcorn down just yet.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Tortoise » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:16 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:38 pm
I wouldn't put the popcorn down just yet.
Definitely not!

I have a feeling that if SCOTUS hears the case and hands the election to Trump by ruling in favor of the Constitution, the TDS sufferers in this thread won't acknowledge that justice was done. They will probably say something like, "SCOTUS subverted our democracy by overruling the states' legislatures and courts."

To the TDS victim, anything that benefits Trump cannot possibly be called justice.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:42 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:38 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:30 pm


I had one of those type people in my house last week. Voted for Trump in 2016. No way would vote for him in 2020.

Vinny
My boss' wife did that in AZ, so I give him hell for that every day. I flipped my wife over from Hillary, and so did another gal I work with since she got married and has kids and more income.

Ultimately this comes down to a few key states and what happened in them. Odd that Ohio would go crushingly for Trump, and MI/PA wouldn't. Very odd that FL would be a relatively easy win, where Trump was supposedly down in the polls, and he'd lose GA where he was supposedly polling up.

Very odd indeed :o

I wouldn't put the popcorn down just yet.
As someone who grew up in MI... I can tell you it is not odd at all that MI and OH went different ways. The two states hate each other. MI historically is also a blue state, and OH is historically a red state.

I currently live in AZ, and I can tell you that there has been a big shift here over the last 4 years. A lot of moderate Republicans did turn on Trump. A lot of young people that never voted before came out with extreme enthusiasm (if you ask me, it's the young people voting in a higher percentage than normal that won the election for Biden). We also have had a pretty big migration of people from CA over the last 4 years, as a cost of living arbitrage play. So yeah, AZ, especially in all the big cities save Scottsdale (Phoenix, Tempe, Tucson, and Flagstaff) have turned very enthusiastically blue in the last few years.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by SomeDude » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:46 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:16 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:38 pm
I wouldn't put the popcorn down just yet.
Definitely not!

I have a feeling that if SCOTUS hears the case and hands the election to Trump by ruling in favor of the Constitution, the TDS sufferers in this thread won't acknowledge that justice was done. They will probably say something like, "SCOTUS subverted our democracy by overruling the states' legislatures and courts."

To the TDS victim, anything that benefits Trump cannot possibly be called justice.
And that's fine. The media will certainly try to whip up their shock troops (antifa, blm) to come out and support the global and corporate establishment. I think the Americans are fed up though and ready to stand up to them even if the federal and state governments will not. The American people would easily mop Antifa and BLM up if the police will step aside and stop protecting them (the looters and rioters). The governor of FL is trying to allow citizens to shoot looters. That will put a quick end to their money business down there.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by glennds » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:32 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:56 pm
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:42 pm


As someone who grew up in MI... I can tell you it is not odd at all that MI and OH went different ways. The two states hate each other. MI historically is also a blue state, and OH is historically a red state.

I currently live in AZ, and I can tell you that there has been a big shift here over the last 4 years. A lot of moderate Republicans did turn on Trump. A lot of young people that never voted before came out with extreme enthusiasm (if you ask me, it's the young people voting in a higher percentage than normal that won the election for Biden). We also have had a pretty big migration of people from CA over the last 4 years, as a cost of living arbitrage play. So yeah, AZ, especially in all the big cities save Scottsdale (Phoenix, Tempe, Tucson, and Flagstaff) have turned very enthusiastically blue in the last few years.
I continue to fail to understand this phenomenon. The reason these idiots are fleeing CA (and NY & IL for that matter) is because they voted in a bunch of pro-tax big-spend progressives. Now they are abandoning the mess they created by moving away, but then vote the same stupid way that made their previous environment unlivable. Is it that complicated that they don't get it?
I live in AZ also, and based on my interactions with people moving here from CA and other places, I think you are overthinking it. Almost all have told me the attractions are (in order) 1. the ability to buy way more house with a dollar and 2. way less road congestion/commute time.
Income taxes are lower in AZ than CA for sure, but certainly not low in general. If a CA resident were fleeing income tax, I would think they'd go to Nevada over Arizona.
Last edited by glennds on Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by glennds » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:55 pm

pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:42 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:38 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:30 pm


I had one of those type people in my house last week. Voted for Trump in 2016. No way would vote for him in 2020.

Vinny
My boss' wife did that in AZ, so I give him hell for that every day. I flipped my wife over from Hillary, and so did another gal I work with since she got married and has kids and more income.

Ultimately this comes down to a few key states and what happened in them. Odd that Ohio would go crushingly for Trump, and MI/PA wouldn't. Very odd that FL would be a relatively easy win, where Trump was supposedly down in the polls, and he'd lose GA where he was supposedly polling up.

Very odd indeed :o

I wouldn't put the popcorn down just yet.
As someone who grew up in MI... I can tell you it is not odd at all that MI and OH went different ways. The two states hate each other. MI historically is also a blue state, and OH is historically a red state.

I currently live in AZ, and I can tell you that there has been a big shift here over the last 4 years. A lot of moderate Republicans did turn on Trump. A lot of young people that never voted before came out with extreme enthusiasm (if you ask me, it's the young people voting in a higher percentage than normal that won the election for Biden). We also have had a pretty big migration of people from CA over the last 4 years, as a cost of living arbitrage play. So yeah, AZ, especially in all the big cities save Scottsdale (Phoenix, Tempe, Tucson, and Flagstaff) have turned very enthusiastically blue in the last few years.
I closely watched what happened here in AZ in the weeks/months leading up to election day. It's a very simple story of two different strategies, one of which turned out to be more effective than the other in the end.

The Trump campaign basically held rallies and events held by Don Jr., Pence, and Trump himself. These rallies were attended by people who were already devoted supporters.

The Biden campaign held very few events, but instead deployed an extensive network of grass roots community level volunteers who came in from all over the country to work a Get Out The Vote initiative, targeting young demographic areas, minority communities, Native American reservations, and other demographics that historically have had lower voter turnout. A big part of their initiative was helping first time voters register. I bumped into their people at the front entry of a large Asian grocery store where I go for special items every so often. They had a table set up for helping people register. This was maybe two months before the election.
A friend of mine came to AZ for three weeks from the East Coast to volunteer with the Biden campaign for this effort. She speaks Mandarin so they assigned her to the Asian American demographic target areas. She told me the instructions were not even to push Biden/Harris, just try to promote high voter turnout. Some volunteers worked farmer's markets, others worked the Hispanic community. There were hundreds of volunteers involved in this effort at the community level. It was painstaking and conducted without much fanfare.

So long story short, from what I can see Trump did a good job reinforcing the base he already had.
Biden broadened his voter base on the thesis that incremental new voters would fall his way and it looks like they did.
I think this was also part of the Stacey Abrams effort in Georgia where it is claimed she helped register over 800,000 new voters.

This is not to promote or bash either candidate. I'm just sharing the campaign strategies I saw deployed on the ground in AZ.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:38 am

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:56 pm
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:42 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:38 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:30 pm


I had one of those type people in my house last week. Voted for Trump in 2016. No way would vote for him in 2020.

Vinny
My boss' wife did that in AZ, so I give him hell for that every day. I flipped my wife over from Hillary, and so did another gal I work with since she got married and has kids and more income.

Ultimately this comes down to a few key states and what happened in them. Odd that Ohio would go crushingly for Trump, and MI/PA wouldn't. Very odd that FL would be a relatively easy win, where Trump was supposedly down in the polls, and he'd lose GA where he was supposedly polling up.

Very odd indeed :o

I wouldn't put the popcorn down just yet.
As someone who grew up in MI... I can tell you it is not odd at all that MI and OH went different ways. The two states hate each other. MI historically is also a blue state, and OH is historically a red state.

I currently live in AZ, and I can tell you that there has been a big shift here over the last 4 years. A lot of moderate Republicans did turn on Trump. A lot of young people that never voted before came out with extreme enthusiasm (if you ask me, it's the young people voting in a higher percentage than normal that won the election for Biden). We also have had a pretty big migration of people from CA over the last 4 years, as a cost of living arbitrage play. So yeah, AZ, especially in all the big cities save Scottsdale (Phoenix, Tempe, Tucson, and Flagstaff) have turned very enthusiastically blue in the last few years.
I continue to fail to understand this phenomenon. The reason these idiots are fleeing CA (and NY & IL for that matter) is because they voted in a bunch of pro-tax big-spend progressives. Now they are abandoning the mess they created by moving away, but then vote the same stupid way that made their previous environment unlivable. Is it that complicated that they don't get it?

I don't know if that's entirely accurate. I think there's a lot of factors at play...crowding and traffic, house prices, expanding job markets, the complicated issue of homelessness and mental health, covid, fires in Cali, and taxes certainly don't help.

I don't think it's fair to blame california's homeless and mental health issues on progressives. We had a lot of that in Florida as well. People who live outside year round understand it's better to do that where it's 80 degrees most of the year and not -30 in the winter. They are disproportionatly affected by this because of their climate...same as crowding and traffic and high house prices. Those are byproducts of success and would be alleviated by progressive policies of better public transport and affordable urban housing.

Taxes have been high in Cali relative to the rest of country and many people who fled cali went to Oregon...another high tax progressive state....so I'm not buying the fleeing progressive policies thing.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by glennds » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:22 am

glennds wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:55 pm
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:42 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:38 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:30 pm


I had one of those type people in my house last week. Voted for Trump in 2016. No way would vote for him in 2020.

Vinny
My boss' wife did that in AZ, so I give him hell for that every day. I flipped my wife over from Hillary, and so did another gal I work with since she got married and has kids and more income.

Ultimately this comes down to a few key states and what happened in them. Odd that Ohio would go crushingly for Trump, and MI/PA wouldn't. Very odd that FL would be a relatively easy win, where Trump was supposedly down in the polls, and he'd lose GA where he was supposedly polling up.

Very odd indeed :o

I wouldn't put the popcorn down just yet.
As someone who grew up in MI... I can tell you it is not odd at all that MI and OH went different ways. The two states hate each other. MI historically is also a blue state, and OH is historically a red state.

I currently live in AZ, and I can tell you that there has been a big shift here over the last 4 years. A lot of moderate Republicans did turn on Trump. A lot of young people that never voted before came out with extreme enthusiasm (if you ask me, it's the young people voting in a higher percentage than normal that won the election for Biden). We also have had a pretty big migration of people from CA over the last 4 years, as a cost of living arbitrage play. So yeah, AZ, especially in all the big cities save Scottsdale (Phoenix, Tempe, Tucson, and Flagstaff) have turned very enthusiastically blue in the last few years.
I closely watched what happened here in AZ in the weeks/months leading up to election day. It's a very simple story of two different strategies, one of which turned out to be more effective than the other in the end.

The Trump campaign basically held rallies and events held by Don Jr., Pence, and Trump himself. These rallies were attended by people who were already devoted supporters.

The Biden campaign held very few events, but instead deployed an extensive network of grass roots community level volunteers who came in from all over the country to work a Get Out The Vote initiative, targeting young demographic areas, minority communities, Native American reservations, and other demographics that historically have had lower voter turnout. A big part of their initiative was helping first time voters register. I bumped into their people at the front entry of a large Asian grocery store where I go for special items every so often. They had a table set up for helping people register. This was maybe two months before the election.
A friend of mine came to AZ for three weeks from the East Coast to volunteer with the Biden campaign for this effort. She speaks Mandarin so they assigned her to the Asian American demographic target areas. She told me the instructions were not even to push Biden/Harris, just try to promote high voter turnout. Some volunteers worked farmer's markets, others worked the Hispanic community. There were hundreds of volunteers involved in this effort at the community level. It was painstaking and conducted without much fanfare.

So long story short, from what I can see Trump did a good job reinforcing the base he already had.
But Biden broadened his base on the thesis that incremental new voters would fall his way and it looks like they did.
I think this was also part of the Stacey Abrams effort in Georgia where it is claimed she helped register over 800,000 new voters.

This is not to promote or bash either candidate. I'm just sharing the campaign strategies I saw deployed on the ground in AZ.
If you believe (or want to believe) the election was stolen through fraud, then you'll probably hate this story, but I watched it all happen.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:25 am

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:56 pm
pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:42 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:38 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:30 pm


I had one of those type people in my house last week. Voted for Trump in 2016. No way would vote for him in 2020.

Vinny
My boss' wife did that in AZ, so I give him hell for that every day. I flipped my wife over from Hillary, and so did another gal I work with since she got married and has kids and more income.

Ultimately this comes down to a few key states and what happened in them. Odd that Ohio would go crushingly for Trump, and MI/PA wouldn't. Very odd that FL would be a relatively easy win, where Trump was supposedly down in the polls, and he'd lose GA where he was supposedly polling up.

Very odd indeed :o

I wouldn't put the popcorn down just yet.
As someone who grew up in MI... I can tell you it is not odd at all that MI and OH went different ways. The two states hate each other. MI historically is also a blue state, and OH is historically a red state.

I currently live in AZ, and I can tell you that there has been a big shift here over the last 4 years. A lot of moderate Republicans did turn on Trump. A lot of young people that never voted before came out with extreme enthusiasm (if you ask me, it's the young people voting in a higher percentage than normal that won the election for Biden). We also have had a pretty big migration of people from CA over the last 4 years, as a cost of living arbitrage play. So yeah, AZ, especially in all the big cities save Scottsdale (Phoenix, Tempe, Tucson, and Flagstaff) have turned very enthusiastically blue in the last few years.
I continue to fail to understand this phenomenon. The reason these idiots are fleeing CA (and NY & IL for that matter) is because they voted in a bunch of pro-tax big-spend progressives. Now they are abandoning the mess they created by moving away, but then vote the same stupid way that made their previous environment unlivable. Is it that complicated that they don't get it?
To counter this... isn't this how a "free market" works? When price gets too high, demand gets low, and then there is a period of adaptation, shake out, and change until eventually demand comes back online. There is more to the expense of CA than just policies as well (though I don't want to dismiss the fact that they keep spending over budget), but there is the weather, the ocean, and tons of high paying tech jobs. Those that aren't in those high paying jobs would get squeezed out regardless of policy. At least this is another angle to look at things at. There is never only 1 simple reason why something is happening.

Also, in the CA to AZ arbitrage, one must remember AZ has invested a lot in aggressively bringing tech jobs to the state. There is a lot of tech talent here, at a much lower cost than the silicon valley. COVID has helped speed this up, as many tech companies are allowing people to work from home permanently, and they now can move somewhere lower cost. I've seen people in my companies silicon valley offices move to lower cost of living areas now that we are all working from home.
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