Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

[pmward]

By the way I should also mention I think Biden has taken this whole thing very well considering. He has said he wishes he could begin his transition officially, but that he is willing to be patient and that he is not going to try to fight for it in the courts. He is not trying to fight Trump in a social media PR blitz. He doesn't seem to feel any need to defend himself. He doesn't really seem phased in any real way by all of Trumps accusations and actions. He is really just kind of sitting back, doing the best he can with what is available, and letting the evidence speak for itself. All things considered, I think that the way he has handled this craziness is admirable. You know Trump wouldn't show that kind of patience, low-key confidence, and restraint if the roles were reversed. The difference in professionalism between Biden and Trump is striking.

How ironic I say this just a couple hours ago. Biden just got the go ahead for the official transition to begin.

[Ad Orientem]

By the way I should also mention I think Biden has taken this whole thing very well considering. He has said he wishes he could begin his transition officially, but that he is willing to be patient and that he is not going to try to fight for it in the courts. He is not trying to fight Trump in a social media PR blitz. He doesn't seem to feel any need to defend himself. He doesn't really seem phased in any real way by all of Trumps accusations and actions. He is really just kind of sitting back, doing the best he can with what is available, and letting the evidence speak for itself. All things considered, I think that the way he has handled this craziness is admirable. You know Trump wouldn't show that kind of patience, low-key confidence, and restraint if the roles were reversed. The difference in professionalism between Biden and Trump is striking.

How ironic I say this just a couple hours ago. Biden just got the go ahead for the official transition to begin.

I just saw a report that Mr. Trump, while refusing to concede, has given permission for his people to begin formal cooperation with the incoming administration. That's probably as much as we can hope for between now and January 20.

[pmward]

By the way I should also mention I think Biden has taken this whole thing very well considering. He has said he wishes he could begin his transition officially, but that he is willing to be patient and that he is not going to try to fight for it in the courts. He is not trying to fight Trump in a social media PR blitz. He doesn't seem to feel any need to defend himself. He doesn't really seem phased in any real way by all of Trumps accusations and actions. He is really just kind of sitting back, doing the best he can with what is available, and letting the evidence speak for itself. All things considered, I think that the way he has handled this craziness is admirable. You know Trump wouldn't show that kind of patience, low-key confidence, and restraint if the roles were reversed. The difference in professionalism between Biden and Trump is striking.

How ironic I say this just a couple hours ago. Biden just got the go ahead for the official transition to begin.

I just saw a report that Mr. Trump, while refusing to concede, has given permission for his people to begin formal cooperation with the incoming administration. That's probably as much as we can hope for between now and January 20.

I'm not surprised on the refusal to concede. I mean we all knew back in 2017 that if he lost in 2020 he wouldn't concede. Doesn't matter the circumstances. That's just the kind of classy guy he is.

[SomeDude]

The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?

My theory on stuff like that is that lots of people all over the world believe the ends justify the means. They believe in the nobility of their cause so much that it doesn't matter what it takes to achieve it. I think those people are much more likely to identify as liberals or democrats because that group is all about achieving some social "good" (equality or whatever, nobody having their feelings hurt etc.) at ANY cost. Violence, fraud, theft, are all justifiable to get what they want. They see Trump as so evil for some reason that to them it's morally wrong NOT to commit fraud or violence to get him out.

The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.

[SomeDude]

I never block posters on forums because i disagree with them. Without disagreement the conversation gets boring. I block people who i think are trolling for fun.

As for the voting fraud. At this point if someone thinks the election was legit i have to think they're playing a game with themselves and with others. They will claim everyone else who sees the obvious stuff is just being ideological. That is a tried and true tactic. Accuse others of your own issues.

Trump is no conservative and he's not a free market guy. He doesn't stand for the constitution and what not. But damn if he didn't wipe the floor with old Joe. He beat him so bad the fraud that was needed is obvious enough for a third of dems to admit it!

[SomeDude]

Just block the lunatics and it will look as it did before.

I've looked around but i don't see how to do that. Can you give me a quick tip please? It's necessary on every forum to not feed the trolls. Thanks

Click on the user's name in the left column to view their profile. Then click 'add foe'.

Btw, welcome to the forum.

Thanks!!!! I promise to use those powers only for good!

[Ad Orientem]

The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?

...The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.

Except... most of that never happened outside of the fever swamps of the internet. If it did, Trump's lawyers would have walked into court with so much evidence they would have needed an army of staff to carry in the boxes of paper records and digital records. Instead they walked into court holding their dicks, and that was about it. That's why Trump and his lawyers have been laughed out of court, over and over again, by both liberal and conservative judges... until yesterday when the judge in PA finally had enough and told them off. The lack of crowds at Biden's events was deliberate. He insisted on social distancing and most of his events were drive ins. Unlike Trump's that were basically biological warfare attacks on his own supporters/staff and Secret Service.

[SomeDude]

The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?

...The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.

Except... most of that never happened outside of the fever swamps of the internet. If it did, Trump's lawyers would have walked into court with so much evidence they would have needed an army of staff to carry in the boxes of paper records and digital records. Instead they walked into court holding their dicks, and that was about it.

I thought they have hundreds of affidavits of people testifying they were obstructed from observing the ballots, being told to back date ballots, observing batches of ballots being run over and over, video footage millions of people have now seen showing workers filling out ballots with ummmm.....just one name on them, crazy things like 80k votes with only Biden's name on them in GA and just 700 like that for Trump, multiple instances of ballots found that favor Trump that were misplaced on election night on some flash drives, biden winning 100% of the votes of people over 120 years old. The list goes on and on.

Courts ruling against Trump is not evidence of anything, Republican or not. The Republican establishment hate Trump and love Biden. Biden is a swamp creature through and through. As Sidney Powell is pointing out, a lot of the fraud has also helped Republicans.

Did you see the public threats against the Michigan republicans in Wayne country to coerce them to certify? People were saying "i know where your kids go to school". What did you think is being said to these judges behind closed doors?

Nothing was ever going to happen with the court cases at the state level. I've seen Trump's lawyers say that from the start. They had to start the legal fight somewhere. This fight will be to see what the state legislators do with the electoral college or with the Supremes.

I'm curious.......why do you think 1/3 of democrats think the election was rigged? I bet it's a lot more than believed the russian Facebook ads cost Hillary the election! talk about a conspiracy theory!

[pmward]

The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?

My theory on stuff like that is that lots of people all over the world believe the ends justify the means. They believe in the nobility of their cause so much that it doesn't matter what it takes to achieve it. I think those people are much more likely to identify as liberals or democrats because that group is all about achieving some social "good" (equality or whatever, nobody having their feelings hurt etc.) at ANY cost. Violence, fraud, theft, are all justifiable to get what they want. They see Trump as so evil for some reason that to them it's morally wrong NOT to commit fraud or violence to get him out.

The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.

Why have these "facts" not made it into court? Oh that's right, because they aren't true and Trump would be tried for perjury if he submitted them. The moment these things get submitted and accepted into court we can discuss them. Until then, it's purely conjecture, your argument is laughably weak, and it has no legs at all to stand on. Accusation is not guilt. You need to prove guilt. Your argument does not prove guilt in any way. If/when there is evidence that proves guilt, I will agree with you. Until that point, sorry to tell you but nobody here that hasn't drank the Trump Kool-Aide (aka Tech and Don) takes your argument seriously. The real, legally submitted evidence (or lack thereof) is my opinion. Unless the evidence changes, my opinion doesn't change.

[SomeDude]

However, arguing with stage 4 TDS victims is like arguing with a washing machine.

This is a very good point. I usually equate it to yelling at a rain cloud to stop raining.

Lots of people on forums are not very serious and will troll around for fun, taking nonsensical positions. I try to mute them as quickly as possible to avoid feeding them (internet rule #1). Keeps the conversations more productive and less combative, which starves trolls looking to get a rise out of people with outrageous posts.

In the era of Trump we have people suffering TDS that appear to be trolling but aren't. I think the only way to tell which one they are is by looking at non-political posts. So I have no idea who is who yet.

On a side note I have no problem with people who don't like Trump. I married a woman this year who voted for Hillary because she couldn't get over the "grab 'em by the kitty cat thing". We've talked a lot about the man this year and I'm proud to say she voted for him and was all-in.

The irony is I like Trump personally, the way he speaks and acts, I truly think he's a good man with good intentions and is personally charming and all that. It's that he's such a liberal and democract at heart that bothers me which is funny because the dems all have TDS. 16 years ago his platform would have been left of Gore's probably.

[doodle]

^^^^ ...the embodiment of all that is wrong in our country succinctly rolled into one post!

[doodle]

Lol, this is hilarious...Some Dude and Tech have created their own little forum where they can stroke Trump's nuts without harassment from trolling doodles. Lololol

[doodle]

Ok heres my theory...some dude is techs imaginary friend who he created to have pleasant conversations with about Trump.

[SomeDude]

The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?

My theory on stuff like that is that lots of people all over the world believe the ends justify the means. They believe in the nobility of their cause so much that it doesn't matter what it takes to achieve it. I think those people are much more likely to identify as liberals or democrats because that group is all about achieving some social "good" (equality or whatever, nobody having their feelings hurt etc.) at ANY cost. Violence, fraud, theft, are all justifiable to get what they want. They see Trump as so evil for some reason that to them it's morally wrong NOT to commit fraud or violence to get him out.

The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.

Why have these "facts" not made it into court? Oh that's right, because they aren't true and Trump would be tried for perjury if he submitted them. The moment these things get submitted and accepted into court we can discuss them. Until then, it's purely conjecture, your argument is laughably weak, and it has no legs at all to stand on. Accusation is not guilt. You need to prove guilt. Your argument does not prove guilt in any way. If/when there is evidence that proves guilt, I will agree with you. Until that point, sorry to tell you but nobody here that hasn't drank the Trump Kool-Aide (aka Tech and Don) takes your argument seriously. The real, legally submitted evidence (or lack thereof) is my opinion. Unless the evidence changes, my opinion doesn't change.

Do you really believe Biden-Kamala got 10M more votes than Obama in 2012? Biden did much worse with non-whites, worse in FL and Ohio, and basically every state and area outside of these major cities in the swing states where they kicked out all the observers.

Do you really believe the Biden-Harris vote totals in Philly, Detroit, Atl, Pittsburg are legitimate? Why would they kick out the republican observers if there was no funny business? Why would turn-out in those cities be completely disproportionate to anywhere else in the country? Why would there be hundreds of thousands of votes that show up late in massive batches that are 100% for Biden, and just have his name and none of the down ballot ticket selected?

This just scratches the surface. I'm hopeful the mountains of evidence they are gathering (which would probably take years normally to compile), will make it impossible for the Supremes to ignore like these state judges, and the "results" in these states will be thrown out.

[vnatale]

The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?

My theory on stuff like that is that lots of people all over the world believe the ends justify the means. They believe in the nobility of their cause so much that it doesn't matter what it takes to achieve it. I think those people are much more likely to identify as liberals or democrats because that group is all about achieving some social "good" (equality or whatever, nobody having their feelings hurt etc.) at ANY cost. Violence, fraud, theft, are all justifiable to get what they want. They see Trump as so evil for some reason that to them it's morally wrong NOT to commit fraud or violence to get him out.

The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.

Why have these "facts" not made it into court? Oh that's right, because they aren't true and Trump would be tried for perjury if he submitted them. The moment these things get submitted and accepted into court we can discuss them. Until then, it's purely conjecture, your argument is laughably weak, and it has no legs at all to stand on. Accusation is not guilt. You need to prove guilt. Your argument does not prove guilt in any way. If/when there is evidence that proves guilt, I will agree with you. Until that point, sorry to tell you but nobody here that hasn't drank the Trump Kool-Aide (aka Tech and Don) takes your argument seriously. The real, legally submitted evidence (or lack thereof) is my opinion. Unless the evidence changes, my opinion doesn't change.

Do you really believe Biden-Kamala got 10M more votes than Obama in 2012? Biden did much worse with non-whites, worse in FL and Ohio, and basically every state and area outside of these major cities in the swing states where they kicked out all the observers.

Do you really believe the Biden-Harris vote totals in Philly, Detroit, Atl, Pittsburg are legitimate? Why would they kick out the republican observers if there was no funny business? Why would turn-out in those cities be completely disproportionate to anywhere else in the country? Why would there be hundreds of thousands of votes that show up late in massive batches that are 100% for Biden, and just have his name and none of the down ballot ticket selected?

This just scratches the surface. I'm hopeful the mountains of evidence they are gathering (which would probably take years normally to compile), will make it impossible for the Supremes to ignore like these state judges, and the "results" in these states will be thrown out.

How do you explain the many non-presidential elections on all levels won by the Republicans?

Were the tampered or fraudulent ballots only done so for the presidential elections and NONE of the other elections?

That is a basic question that needs to be satisfactorily answered by anyone believing the presidential election was stolen. Why stop there? Why not steal lots of other ones?

Vinny

[pmward]

Do you really believe Biden-Kamala got 10M more votes than Obama in 2012? Biden did much worse with non-whites, worse in FL and Ohio, and basically every state and area outside of these major cities in the swing states where they kicked out all the observers.

Do you really believe the Biden-Harris vote totals in Philly, Detroit, Atl, Pittsburg are legitimate? Why would they kick out the republican observers if there was no funny business? Why would turn-out in those cities be completely disproportionate to anywhere else in the country? Why would there be hundreds of thousands of votes that show up late in massive batches that are 100% for Biden, and just have his name and none of the down ballot ticket selected?

This just scratches the surface. I'm hopeful the mountains of evidence they are gathering (which would probably take years normally to compile), will make it impossible for the Supremes to ignore like these state judges, and the "results" in these states will be thrown out.

This is all opinion and conjecture. No proof, as such it's a weak argument that we all can (and will) dismiss instantly.

Look, if accusations were against Trump I would not believe them unless there was real proof. Likewise, when there are accusations against Biden, I will not believe them unless there is proof. Innocent until proven guilty. The ball is in Trump's court to bring evidence of guilt. If he cannot do that, that in itself is proof of innocence in the American justice system. Until there is real legally submitted proof, you're just wasting your breath. These baseless arguments are not going to change anybodies opinion here. What would change everyone's opinion here? Proof submitted, accepted and found guilty in court. Anything short of that is not good enough... just like it wouldn't have been good enough if the roles were reversed and it was accusations against Trump.

[SomeDude]

How do you explain the many non-presidential elections on all levels won by the Republicans?

Were the tampered or fraudulent ballots only done so for the presidential elections and NONE of the other elections?

That is a basic question that needs to be satisfactorily answered by anyone believing the presidential election was stolen. Why stop there? Why not steal lots of other ones?

Vinny

Who's to say they didn't steal a lot more?

Republicans winning back a lot of seats and holding the Senate despite having twice as many seats up for grabs is an argument that there WAS fraud at the presidential level, not against it.

Unless you believe one of these things:

1. Republican voters turned out in record numbers to enthusiastically vote for their congress people and senators who they love so much but decided to vote for Harris-biden as well.

2. Democrats and liberals came out in record numbers to vote for Harris-biden (millions more than for Obama), but then broke for republicans or otherwise ignored the down ballot races.

Those scenarios seem like wild conspiracy theories to me. Which one of them do you think happened?

Occam's razor - it's much more likely the down ballot stuff had less fraud. If there was too much fraud in the small races that are much more easily verifiable, audits of votes in congressional districts would put the obvious fraud at the presidential level at great risk.

[pmward]

I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.

[SomeDude]

This is all opinion and conjecture. No proof, as such it's a weak argument that we all can (and will) dismiss instantly.

Did you see the videos of republican observers standing outside polling places while "votes" were being "counted"? Did you see the boards being put up to block observation?

What is that proof of?

If I see a guy standing over a murder victim with the bloody knife in his hand and he's publicly stated he wants to murder him, do I need video proof of the actual stabbing? Actually I think they have videos of ballot counters filling out ballots (just the presidential race of course).

[SomeDude]

I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.

Well let's bring it back to the topic. What do you think is driving the large number of Dems to think the election was stolen from Trump? Virtually all the media, and even a good portion of FOX keep saying there is no evidence and the election was secure and just.

What is causing so many people to doubt the results? Do you think Dems are just getting Trump's twitter feed and believing it?

[pmward]

I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.

Well let's bring it back to the topic. What do you think is driving the large number of Dems to think the election was stolen from Trump? Virtually all the media, and even a good portion of FOX keep saying there is no evidence and the election was secure and just.

What is causing so many people to doubt the results? Do you think Dems are just getting Trump's twitter feed and believing it?

I don't care. Opinion is not fact. What someone thinks happened has no bearing on what actually did (or did not) happen. I also don't trust studies put out on media. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" and all that.

[SomeDude]

I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.

Well let's bring it back to the topic. What do you think is driving the large number of Dems to think the election was stolen from Trump? Virtually all the media, and even a good portion of FOX keep saying there is no evidence and the election was secure and just.

What is causing so many people to doubt the results? Do you think Dems are just getting Trump's twitter feed and believing it?

I don't care. Opinion is not fact. What someone thinks happened has no bearing on what actually did (or did not) happen. I also don't trust studies put out on media. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" and all that.

Ahhhhh. My mistake. I thought we were discussing why so many dems think Trump got cheated.

Well cheers to having the facts come out. I hope we can all agree if there was fraud it's important to get to the bottom of it. If a group of criminals is trying to get complete control of the government through fraud and intimidation, they sure as heck do not have good things planned for us.

[doodle]

I think we have fed the trolls. I think we need to stop actually giving attention and verification to ridiculous baseless accusations and opinions. They really don't deserve a response, and they refute themselves to any halfway intelligent person.

Well let's bring it back to the topic. What do you think is driving the large number of Dems to think the election was stolen from Trump? Virtually all the media, and even a good portion of FOX keep saying there is no evidence and the election was secure and just.

What is causing so many people to doubt the results? Do you think Dems are just getting Trump's twitter feed and believing it?

I don't care. Opinion is not fact. What someone thinks happened has no bearing on what actually did (or did not) happen. I also don't trust studies put out on media. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" and all that.

Ahhhhh. My mistake. I thought we were discussing why so many dems think Trump got cheated.

Well cheers to having the facts come out. I hope we can all agree if there was fraud it's important to get to the bottom of it. If a group of criminals is trying to get complete control of the government through fraud and intimidation, they sure as heck do not have good things planned for us.

When and how can we agree? Aren't judges government officials? Maybe they are in on it as well...I don't think any evidence will be enough to convince some. There is a flat earth society for a reason after all...no amount of evidence is enough to persuade some

[Cortopassi]

Bottom line I have mentioned before to tech and sophie --

If Trump won, I would have dealt with it the best I could and not suspected fraud.

Ditto if Biden lost.

My sense is that there are people, on this forum and elsewhere in America, who will go to their graves believing the election was stolen from Trump. I truly feel bad for you, to have something like that gnawing at your soul constantly. I hope people can get over it at some point.

[vnatale]

How do you explain the many non-presidential elections on all levels won by the Republicans?

Were the tampered or fraudulent ballots only done so for the presidential elections and NONE of the other elections?

That is a basic question that needs to be satisfactorily answered by anyone believing the presidential election was stolen. Why stop there? Why not steal lots of other ones?

Vinny

Who's to say they didn't steal a lot more?

Republicans winning back a lot of seats and holding the Senate despite having twice as many seats up for grabs is an argument that there WAS fraud at the presidential level, not against it.

Unless you believe one of these things:

1. Republican voters turned out in record numbers to enthusiastically vote for their congress people and senators who they love so much but decided to vote for Harris-biden as well.

2. Democrats and liberals came out in record numbers to vote for Harris-biden (millions more than for Obama), but then broke for republicans or otherwise ignored the down ballot races.

Those scenarios seem like wild conspiracy theories to me. Which one of them do you think happened?

Occam's razor - it's much more likely the down ballot stuff had less fraud. If there was too much fraud in the small races that are much more easily verifiable, audits of votes in congressional districts would put the obvious fraud at the presidential level at great risk.

You are correct. As I was writing what I wrote above the thought crossed my mind that a response could be that they actually did steal more. That the the Republicans winning so many elections was not in itself determinative. That if there had not been such widespread fraud that they would have won ever MORE elections. That would be all be consistent thinking. But I don't believe any of it.

What I believe?

What I heard a Republican say on C-Span during the last week make sense. This was a Republican who'd served in two Republican administrations. He did not believe that there was any election fraud of any consequence and that all the election results were valid. Under that assumption it says that a lot of people in this country like the Republican brand, policies. But also a lot of them just could not take another four years of Trump so they voted for the alternative.

This is exactly the question I'd asked here prior to the election. What voting groups were going to vote for him in a higher rate in 2020 than they had in 2016? I could not see any. All I could see that the ones who had voted for Obama prior had voted for Trump because of perceived change decided that he was not the type of change that they were seeking. There were definite consequences to the way he carried out his presidency. I do now acknowledge that there were some voting groups (blacks, Latinos?) who did vote at a higher rate for him in 2020 than 2016 but this increase was no where the decrease the from those he alienated (I believe this was the educated).

Vinny