Trump self pardon

User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:47 am

ahhrunforthehills wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:34 am
doodle wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:50 am
When the affidavit can't even keep Minnesota and Michigan straight what gives you any confidence that anything else in there is correct? You can keep throwing the spaghetti...but at some point the reasonable voices like Christie come out and start calling the whole thing a national embarrassment. At that point you can go back into your bunker and prepare for the coming illegitimate Biden apocalypse or accept the reality (as Trump seems to be coming around to) that your man lost and get on with life. Either way, in 60 days based on all the evidence we will have a new President. My guess is that these lawsuits will peter out by the end of the month.
Why does MY CONFIDENCE matter?

You seem to be talking about how YOU think the US Court System should work... I am talking about how the system ACTUALLY works.

Lawsuits are not a popularity contest in the beginning. "Overall opinions" matter zero for the initial pleadings. I am straight-up telling you how the courts handle lawsuits. Again, the bar of evidence is absurdly low to bring a suit and have it proceed to discovery.

You assume that Trump is "my guy". But again, you are simply allowing your emotions to drive your own narrative. Perhaps Hillary should have won in 2016... perhaps Bernie should have been the nominee instead of her. Your emotions are blinding you from the bigger picture.

Maybe the evidence will bear fruit or maybe it won't. Investigating our election system is the most pro-democracy thing that can be done. I find it sad that people that claim to be "pro-democracy" claim otherwise. If they uncover nothing... that is a great thing (since we can have confidence in it). If they uncover something... that is a great thing (since it can be fixed).
Now that Biden transition has been allowed to go forward I have less opposition to all of this.

In the end if they find nothing of substance and say so, then I will be ok with that. Sure, let them dig. But the fact that all of their lawsuits to date have been thrown out reeks like a desperate grasping attempt to throw doubt on a process. My hunch is they will soil our democracy to protect Donald's fragile ego. The damage from that will be lasting.
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:12 pm

doodle wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:47 am
Now that Biden transition has been allowed to go forward I have less opposition to all of this.

In the end if they find nothing of substance and say so, then I will be ok with that. Sure, let them dig. But the fact that all of their lawsuits to date have been thrown out reeks like a desperate grasping attempt to throw doubt on a process. My hunch is they will soil our democracy to protect Donald's fragile ego. The damage from that will be lasting.
You forgot to add your follow up sentence. And if they find solid evidence, then I will support the current administration's second term.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:17 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:12 pm
doodle wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:47 am
Now that Biden transition has been allowed to go forward I have less opposition to all of this.

In the end if they find nothing of substance and say so, then I will be ok with that. Sure, let them dig. But the fact that all of their lawsuits to date have been thrown out reeks like a desperate grasping attempt to throw doubt on a process. My hunch is they will soil our democracy to protect Donald's fragile ego. The damage from that will be lasting.
You forgot to add your follow up sentence. And if they find solid evidence, then I will support the current administration's second term.
Absolutely. I will recognize...support probably wrong terminology. When will you recognize?
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:24 pm

doodle wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:17 pm
Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:12 pm
doodle wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:47 am
Now that Biden transition has been allowed to go forward I have less opposition to all of this.

In the end if they find nothing of substance and say so, then I will be ok with that. Sure, let them dig. But the fact that all of their lawsuits to date have been thrown out reeks like a desperate grasping attempt to throw doubt on a process. My hunch is they will soil our democracy to protect Donald's fragile ego. The damage from that will be lasting.
You forgot to add your follow up sentence. And if they find solid evidence, then I will support the current administration's second term.
Absolutely. I will recognize...support probably wrong terminology. When will you recognize?
I don't vote. Never do. I don't have a dog in this fight. I disagree with 50% of whatever policies are active at any time and I have a higher ROI in working around the policies I don't like (via lifestyle choices) than any return I would get at worrying about who is in office.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:38 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:24 pm
doodle wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:17 pm
Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:12 pm
doodle wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:47 am
Now that Biden transition has been allowed to go forward I have less opposition to all of this.

In the end if they find nothing of substance and say so, then I will be ok with that. Sure, let them dig. But the fact that all of their lawsuits to date have been thrown out reeks like a desperate grasping attempt to throw doubt on a process. My hunch is they will soil our democracy to protect Donald's fragile ego. The damage from that will be lasting.
You forgot to add your follow up sentence. And if they find solid evidence, then I will support the current administration's second term.
Absolutely. I will recognize...support probably wrong terminology. When will you recognize?
I don't vote. Never do. I don't have a dog in this fight. I disagree with 50% of whatever policies are active at any time and I have a higher ROI in working around the policies I don't like (via lifestyle choices) than any return I would get at worrying about who is in office.
I felt that way up until Trump. This is first election I voted in. Just voted for president and state senator that's it.
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Ad Orientem » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:05 pm

TRUMP PARDONS FLYNN

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-says ... _lead_pos2


And so it begins.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:13 pm

Yep, and Trump is most likely facing a barrage of lawsuits unless he figures out how to pardon himself.

https://www.businessinsider.com/muelle ... eddit.com
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:32 pm

I hope he pardons Julian Assange.
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:39 pm

doodle wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:13 pm
Yep, and Trump is most likely facing a barrage of lawsuits unless he figures out how to pardon himself.

https://www.businessinsider.com/muelle ... eddit.com
Yeah, so that's coming from one of the group who are probably facing their own possible charges for using a phony dossier, which they knew was funded by Hillary and didn't hold water, to get investigations, and then lying to the FISA court, multiple times. I'd like to see them charge Trump. I'm thinking he'll say bring it on. He'll finally get the venue to get Comey, Brennan, Obama, Hillary, and the rest of them under oath. I'd LOVE to see it all get aired out in court. If Trump did something, let's get it out. It's pretty clear the other side did a bunch of illegal stuff.

In other words, that stance is pure BS. Sort of high stakes poker. They are trying to intimidate Trump in order to discourage their own prosecutions.

Meanwhile, look for Uncle Joe to do the Gerald Ford thing and say that we need to move on. Because if there is a scorched earth policy, he probably knows he's vulnerable too.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by vnatale » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:53 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:05 pm
TRUMP PARDONS FLYNN

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-says ... _lead_pos2


And so it begins.
The Trump potential future pardons were discussed earlier today on one of the segments of C-Span's Washington Journal. The person speaking stated that Trump liked the pardoning power since he did not have to answer to anyone and there was no legal recourse for anything he chose to do.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:57 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:39 pm
doodle wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:13 pm
Yep, and Trump is most likely facing a barrage of lawsuits unless he figures out how to pardon himself.

https://www.businessinsider.com/muelle ... eddit.com
Yeah, so that's coming from one of the group who are probably facing their own possible charges for using a phony dossier, which they knew was funded by Hillary and didn't hold water, to get investigations, and then lying to the FISA court, multiple times. I'd like to see them charge Trump. I'm thinking he'll say bring it on. He'll finally get the venue to get Comey, Brennan, Obama, Hillary, and the rest of them under oath. I'd LOVE to see it all get aired out in court. If Trump did something, let's get it out. It's pretty clear the other side did a bunch of illegal stuff.

In other words, that stance is pure BS. Sort of high stakes poker. They are trying to intimidate Trump in order to discourage their own prosecutions.

Meanwhile, look for Uncle Joe to do the Gerald Ford thing and say that we need to move on. Because if there is a scorched earth policy, he probably knows he's vulnerable too.
I'd be down for a battle royale! I think the role of the Steele dossier is exaggerated. Mueller debunked the majority of it. It didn't really play a role in investigation
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:39 pm

President Trump has discussed with advisers whether to grant pre-emptive pardons to his children, to his son-in-law and to his personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani, and talked with Mr. Giuliani about pardoning him as recently as last week, according to two people briefed on the matter.

Mr. Trump has told others that he is concerned that a Biden Justice Department might seek retribution against the president by targeting the oldest three of his five children — Donald Trump Jr., Eric Trump and Ivanka Trump — as well as Ms. Trump’s husband, Jared Kushner, a White House senior adviser.

Donald Trump Jr. had been under investigation by Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel, for contacts that the younger Mr. Trump had had with Russians offering damaging information on Hillary Clinton during the 2016 campaign, but he was never charged. Mr. Kushner provided false information to federal authorities about his contacts with foreigners for his security clearance, but was given one anyway by the president.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/01/us/p ... =Homepage

As I predicted...
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3338
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: https://www.jwst.nasa.gov/content/webbL ... sWebb.html

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:47 pm

Awesome. The courts are all in on it too.
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3338
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: https://www.jwst.nasa.gov/content/webbL ... sWebb.html

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:28 am

For anyone who knows, what would a pardon, say, for family members entail, before any crime has been charged?

--Is something like this able to be worded along the lines of for now and in perpetuity I hereby grant a pardon to xxxx?
--Or does it have to be for something in the works, or a certain date range ending Jan 20,2021?
--Or something else?

I am just wondering if say Jared commits a federal crime 10 years from now, can something like that possibly be covered?
glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by glennds » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:39 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:28 am
For anyone who knows, what would a pardon, say, for family members entail, before any crime has been charged?

--Is something like this able to be worded along the lines of for now and in perpetuity I hereby grant a pardon to xxxx?
--Or does it have to be for something in the works, or a certain date range ending Jan 20,2021?
--Or something else?

I am just wondering if say Jared commits a federal crime 10 years from now, can something like that possibly be covered?
It's pretty much universally agreed that the pardon is only applicable to crimes committed up to the date of the pardon, even if the crimes have not been charged.
So a crime committed by Jared on or before the pardon date, but not charged for some time would be covered. A crime committed after the pardon date would not be covered.

I think the idea of a self-pardon is outrageous no matter who it is and no matter what level of rationalization or justification the most creative minds could come up with. The principle of a person not acting as their own judge is a principle that goes back to the Magna Carta in the 13th century. If Trump tries it, it will be tested and it will fail.
If not for the above reasons, then for the purpose of not setting a precedent that any future President may break any Federal laws at will and without consequences. That would be one hell of a message to send in a country that purports to respect the principles of democracy and rule of law.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:26 pm


WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump issued 26 pardons and three commutations to loyalists Wednesday evening, in the final weeks of his presidency.

Trump pardoned Charles Kushner, the father of his son-in-law, Jared Kushner as well as Paul Manafort, his 2016 campaign chairman, and Roger Stone, his longtime informal adviser and confidant.

Chris Christie: Jared Kushner's father committed 'one of the most loathsome, disgusting crimes' I prosecuted

Couldn't help but make me feel ashamed to live in a land where justice is a game.

-Bob Dylan - Hurricane
boglerdude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1313
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:40 am
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by boglerdude » Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:00 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVjL5rUx3TM

Frontline vid about Alex Jones, Trump and Stone.
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by I Shrugged » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:08 pm

You should not be able to pardon yourself, for obvious reasons.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by vnatale » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:33 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:08 pm
You should not be able to pardon yourself, for obvious reasons.
I forget what our Constitutionalists say here. The ones who believe we should always follow the Constitution and it is always so clear as to what is permissible or not.

Can or can he not pardon himself according to what the Constitution says?

For the record, I have never been a Constitution worshiper.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by glennds » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:16 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:33 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:08 pm
You should not be able to pardon yourself, for obvious reasons.
I forget what our Constitutionalists say here. The ones who believe we should always follow the Constitution and it is always so clear as to what is permissible or not.

Can or can he not pardon himself according to what the Constitution says?

For the record, I have never been a Constitution worshiper.

Vinny
Vinny,
The Constitution doesn't specifically prohibit it. So for that reason, there are those who believe (or want to believe) that it is allowed. The problem is that self-pardon is effectively allowing a person to act as their own judge, which is an idea that is in conflict with the most basic ideas underlying the US legal system, and a clear legal doctrine that goes back to the Magna Carta.

But since no President has ever tried it before, the act has never been brought to the Supreme Court for a test of Constitutionality.
I think most hard boiled Constitutionalists would be against the idea. However, I have heard some on this forum take the position that what would normally be unthinkable, unacceptable, Constitutionally impermissible acts would be completely acceptable if Trump did them because the Democrats are just that evil and therefore exceptions are warranted.

If this is something Trump really wants to do, I would think the better strategy might be to resign a day or two before the end of his term, and have Pence issue him the pardon.

If democracy were a Renaissance Michelangelo sculpture, we're now to the point of spray painting it with graffiti tags and doing lines of cocaine off the base.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by vnatale » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:18 pm

glennds wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:16 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:33 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:08 pm
You should not be able to pardon yourself, for obvious reasons.
I forget what our Constitutionalists say here. The ones who believe we should always follow the Constitution and it is always so clear as to what is permissible or not.

Can or can he not pardon himself according to what the Constitution says?

For the record, I have never been a Constitution worshiper.

Vinny
Vinny,
The Constitution doesn't specifically prohibit it. So for that reason, there are those who believe (or want to believe) that it is allowed. The problem is that self-pardon is effectively allowing a person to act as their own judge, which is an idea that is in conflict with the most basic ideas underlying the US legal system, and a clear legal doctrine that goes back to the Magna Carta.

But since no President has ever tried it before, the act has never been brought to the Supreme Court for a test of Constitutionality.
I think most hard boiled Constitutionalists would be against the idea. However, I have heard some on this forum take the position that what would normally be unthinkable, unacceptable, Constitutionally impermissible acts would be completely acceptable if Trump did them because the Democrats are just that evil and therefore exceptions are warranted.

If this is something Trump really wants to do, I would think the better strategy might be to resign a day or two before the end of his term, and have Pence issue him the pardon.

If democracy were a Renaissance Michelangelo sculpture, we're now to the point of spray painting it with graffiti tags and doing lines of cocaine off the base.
As usual....you make the same point far more powerfully than I could ever dream of making!

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Post Reply