Trump self pardon

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Cortopassi
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:22 pm

If he does this, I sure hope at least some percentage of his adherents realize they've been bamboozled.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Ad Orientem » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:22 pm
If he does this, I sure hope at least some percentage of his adherents realize they've been bamboozled.

I think many of them are too far gone. For them Donald Trump has become a messianic figure, which is why I have said that the GOP has become a cult of personality. For the true believers, some of whom do post on this forum, they have become drunk on Trump's Kool-Aid. A few years back Trump bragged he could shoot someone in broad daylight and would not loose many supporters. It was a very rare case of his being truthful.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:32 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:22 pm
If he does this, I sure hope at least some percentage of his adherents realize they've been bamboozled.

I think many of them are too far gone. For them Donald Trump has become a messianic figure, which is why I have said that the GOP has become a cult of personality. For the true believers, some of whom do post on this forum, they have become drunk on Trump's Kool-Aid. A few years back Trump bragged he could shoot someone in broad daylight and would not loose many supporters. It was a very rare case of his being truthful.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vinny
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:45 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:22 pm
If he does this, I sure hope at least some percentage of his adherents realize they've been bamboozled.

I think many of them are too far gone. For them Donald Trump has become a messianic figure, which is why I have said that the GOP has become a cult of personality. For the true believers, some of whom do post on this forum, they have become drunk on Trump's Kool-Aid. A few years back Trump bragged he could shoot someone in broad daylight and would not loose many supporters. It was a very rare case of his being truthful.
The below is at the beginning of a book I am just starting to read. It echoes what you have written above.

Vinny


For a few years, Gingrich was regarded as a sideshow member of Congress, and his speeches reinforced this status. Among the choicest examples was his claim that under Democrats, “we in America could experience the joys of Soviet-style brutality and murdering of women and children.” He said Speaker of the House Thomas P. “Tip” O’Neill “may not understand freedom versus slavery” and that in contesting the election results in one congressional district Democrats resembled Nazis. As he used this talk to claim the pure center of the GOP, Gingrich moved from the fringe to a place of influence. By 1985, he would lead a coterie of like-minded House members and declare, “I’m unavoidable. I represent real power.”

Hillary Clinton was among the first big enemies Gingrich promoted. (He famously called her “a bitch.”) Thus he applied his warfare method to the GOP’s opponents and then to purge moderates from the party who were called RINOs for Republicans in Name Only. As Gingrich and others became even more rabid they attacked the very idea of verifiable facts like the science behind climate change and adapted to admit conspiracy theories about everything from vaccines to the assassination of John F. Kennedy. In some corners, a conservative’s identity would depend on his or her willingness to embrace such extreme notions. The more feverish the thought—the Clintons order murders!—the more stalwart the believer.4

The swell of distortion and hatred had begun cresting after the election of Barack Obama in 2008. Even before he took office, Obama was accused of plotting to overthrow the United States on behalf of Muslim antagonists, secretly marrying a Pakistani man, and refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. After his inauguration Obama was blamed for mass shootings and individual murders. One congressional Republican warned Obama would soon send young Americans to political reeducation camps. Faith in such outlandish ideas seemed to be part of GOP identity. A year after Obama released his birth certificate in 2011, only 27 percent of Republicans believed he was native-born. By 2016, Hillary Clinton was the primary subject of GOP voters’ fever dreams, which placed her in the middle of countless crimes and conspiracies, including of a pedophile ring operating in the basement of a pizzeria in Washington, D.C. There was no pedophile group, and the restaurant had no basement, but in a poll, nearly half of GOP voters said they either believed, or were open to accepting, the pizza pedophile story.5

Much of the energy behind the anti-fact extremism was generated by long-standing appeals to so-called culture war issues framed in apocalyptic terms. Beginning in the 1970s, right-wing activists and fund-raisers sought to terrify voters with mass mailings and broadcasts that purported to reveal hidden forces of depravity and destruction. Urgent action was needed because, among other things, Democrats were trying to force parents to pay children minimum wage for chores; the United Nations was bent on destroying American families; schools were teaching children that “cannibalism, wife swapping, and the murder of infants and the elderly are acceptable behavior.” Much of this harebrained propaganda emanated from television evangelists such as the Reverend Jerry Falwell, who, in 1981, told his flock that gay people were out to “recruit” their children into homosexuality, and the Reverend Pat Roberston, who, in 1986, called non-Christians “termites” worthy of “fumigation.”
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Ad Orientem » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm

Indeed. The way the political right in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent left wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by l82start » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:47 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm
Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:33 am

l82start wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:47 am
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm
Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
The vast majority of loony conspiracy theories emanate from the political right wing. Whether it's the absurd theories of QAnon, anti vaxxers, Alex Jones Lizard people deep state shit, nutjob evangelicals... there is something about the right wing that breeds this. I do not see a similar penchant among people on the left.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by l82start » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:40 am

And thank you to doodle for proving of the point....
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:00 am

l82start wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:40 am
And thank you to doodle for proving of the point....
I won't argue that the left doesn't have some bad ideas...but loony conspiracies....please enlighten me.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by pmward » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:03 am

l82start wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:47 am
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm
Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
I agree with you here on quite a bit actually. Though, I see Biden as the lesser of two bad choices by a long shot. Also, I believe the lunatic conspiracy theories on the "right" are much more extreme and delusional than those on the "left", though I do agree they do exist. Both sides have their populist propaganda. But on the "right" it's like looney bin tin-foil hat level these days. I trust National Enquirer more than I trust "right" media these days.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:16 am

pmward wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:03 am
l82start wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:47 am
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm
Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
I agree with you here on quite a bit actually. Though, I see Biden as the lesser of two bad choices by a long shot. Also, I believe the lunatic conspiracy theories on the "right" are much more extreme and delusional than those on the "left", though I do agree they do exist. Both sides have their populist propaganda. But on the "right" it's like looney bin tin-foil hat level these days. I trust National Enquirer more than I trust "right" media these days.
Any left wing conspiracies are seriously fringe whereas on the right they are entirely mainstream. That's the difference. The left is full of bad ideas however...I will grant you that
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by pmward » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:20 am

doodle wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:16 am
pmward wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:03 am
l82start wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:47 am
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm
Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
I agree with you here on quite a bit actually. Though, I see Biden as the lesser of two bad choices by a long shot. Also, I believe the lunatic conspiracy theories on the "right" are much more extreme and delusional than those on the "left", though I do agree they do exist. Both sides have their populist propaganda. But on the "right" it's like looney bin tin-foil hat level these days. I trust National Enquirer more than I trust "right" media these days.
Any left wing conspiracies are seriously fringe whereas on the right they are entirely mainstream. That's the difference. The left is full of bad ideas but doesn't seem to have the type of brain structure necessary to suspend belief and override contradictory evidence the way that people on the conservative side of the spectrum do.
Yes exactly. Though "left" media admittedly does show a lot of bias. It is really difficult to find non-partisan media these days. What I've found interesting in the last couple weeks though, is Fox News of all places starting to try to distance themselves from the tin-foil hat right delusion. Like we actually reached the tipping point where even Fox News got uncomfortable. That says a lot. It also says a lot when Trump's followers start to revolt against Fox News for taking a step back and reducing the amount (and extremity) of false propaganda they report. Like how has Trump's word become the gold standard judge of what is truth or not for millions of Americans? This fact honestly scares the shit out of me!
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