Trump self pardon

User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Ad Orientem »

Cortopassi wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:22 pm If he does this, I sure hope at least some percentage of his adherents realize they've been bamboozled.

I think many of them are too far gone. For them Donald Trump has become a messianic figure, which is why I have said that the GOP has become a cult of personality. For the true believers, some of whom do post on this forum, they have become drunk on Trump's Kool-Aid. A few years back Trump bragged he could shoot someone in broad daylight and would not loose many supporters. It was a very rare case of his being truthful.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9472
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by vnatale »

Ad Orientem wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 pm
Cortopassi wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:22 pm If he does this, I sure hope at least some percentage of his adherents realize they've been bamboozled.

I think many of them are too far gone. For them Donald Trump has become a messianic figure, which is why I have said that the GOP has become a cult of personality. For the true believers, some of whom do post on this forum, they have become drunk on Trump's Kool-Aid. A few years back Trump bragged he could shoot someone in broad daylight and would not loose many supporters. It was a very rare case of his being truthful.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9472
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by vnatale »

Ad Orientem wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 pm
Cortopassi wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:22 pm If he does this, I sure hope at least some percentage of his adherents realize they've been bamboozled.

I think many of them are too far gone. For them Donald Trump has become a messianic figure, which is why I have said that the GOP has become a cult of personality. For the true believers, some of whom do post on this forum, they have become drunk on Trump's Kool-Aid. A few years back Trump bragged he could shoot someone in broad daylight and would not loose many supporters. It was a very rare case of his being truthful.
The below is at the beginning of a book I am just starting to read. It echoes what you have written above.

Vinny


For a few years, Gingrich was regarded as a sideshow member of Congress, and his speeches reinforced this status. Among the choicest examples was his claim that under Democrats, “we in America could experience the joys of Soviet-style brutality and murdering of women and children.” He said Speaker of the House Thomas P. “Tip” O’Neill “may not understand freedom versus slavery” and that in contesting the election results in one congressional district Democrats resembled Nazis. As he used this talk to claim the pure center of the GOP, Gingrich moved from the fringe to a place of influence. By 1985, he would lead a coterie of like-minded House members and declare, “I’m unavoidable. I represent real power.”

Hillary Clinton was among the first big enemies Gingrich promoted. (He famously called her “a bitch.”) Thus he applied his warfare method to the GOP’s opponents and then to purge moderates from the party who were called RINOs for Republicans in Name Only. As Gingrich and others became even more rabid they attacked the very idea of verifiable facts like the science behind climate change and adapted to admit conspiracy theories about everything from vaccines to the assassination of John F. Kennedy. In some corners, a conservative’s identity would depend on his or her willingness to embrace such extreme notions. The more feverish the thought—the Clintons order murders!—the more stalwart the believer.4

The swell of distortion and hatred had begun cresting after the election of Barack Obama in 2008. Even before he took office, Obama was accused of plotting to overthrow the United States on behalf of Muslim antagonists, secretly marrying a Pakistani man, and refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. After his inauguration Obama was blamed for mass shootings and individual murders. One congressional Republican warned Obama would soon send young Americans to political reeducation camps. Faith in such outlandish ideas seemed to be part of GOP identity. A year after Obama released his birth certificate in 2011, only 27 percent of Republicans believed he was native-born. By 2016, Hillary Clinton was the primary subject of GOP voters’ fever dreams, which placed her in the middle of countless crimes and conspiracies, including of a pedophile ring operating in the basement of a pizzeria in Washington, D.C. There was no pedophile group, and the restaurant had no basement, but in a poll, nearly half of GOP voters said they either believed, or were open to accepting, the pizza pedophile story.5

Much of the energy behind the anti-fact extremism was generated by long-standing appeals to so-called culture war issues framed in apocalyptic terms. Beginning in the 1970s, right-wing activists and fund-raisers sought to terrify voters with mass mailings and broadcasts that purported to reveal hidden forces of depravity and destruction. Urgent action was needed because, among other things, Democrats were trying to force parents to pay children minimum wage for chores; the United Nations was bent on destroying American families; schools were teaching children that “cannibalism, wife swapping, and the murder of infants and the elderly are acceptable behavior.” Much of this harebrained propaganda emanated from television evangelists such as the Reverend Jerry Falwell, who, in 1981, told his flock that gay people were out to “recruit” their children into homosexuality, and the Reverend Pat Roberston, who, in 1986, called non-Christians “termites” worthy of “fumigation.”
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Ad Orientem »

Indeed. The way the political right in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent left wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle »

Simonjester wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
The vast majority of loony conspiracy theories emanate from the political right wing. Whether it's the absurd theories of QAnon, anti vaxxers, Alex Jones Lizard people deep state shit, nutjob evangelicals... there is something about the right wing that breeds this. I do not see a similar penchant among people on the left.
Simonjester wrote: And thank you to doodle for proving of the point....
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle »

Simonjester wrote: And thank you to doodle for proving of the point....
I won't argue that the left doesn't have some bad ideas...but loony conspiracies....please enlighten me.
pmward
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by pmward »

Simonjester wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
I agree with you here on quite a bit actually. Though, I see Biden as the lesser of two bad choices by a long shot. Also, I believe the lunatic conspiracy theories on the "right" are much more extreme and delusional than those on the "left", though I do agree they do exist. Both sides have their populist propaganda. But on the "right" it's like looney bin tin-foil hat level these days. I trust National Enquirer more than I trust "right" media these days.
Simonjester wrote: i trust NO MEDIA at all these days, mainstream media including the ones passing themselves off as right wing are all bought and payed for by those corrupted by power..
i will concede that there is a tendency for some to take a justifiable paranoia and run with it to the point of absurdity (Alex Jones types) but being a distrustful skeptic myself i tend to suspect that some or all of the wakadoo stuff is little more than another bought and payed for attempt to discredit the very same justifiable paranoia. if you take a common sense rational/justified distrust of government and connect it to a nut case you make all the real reasons to distrust government look shady..
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle »

pmward wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:03 am
Simonjester wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
I agree with you here on quite a bit actually. Though, I see Biden as the lesser of two bad choices by a long shot. Also, I believe the lunatic conspiracy theories on the "right" are much more extreme and delusional than those on the "left", though I do agree they do exist. Both sides have their populist propaganda. But on the "right" it's like looney bin tin-foil hat level these days. I trust National Enquirer more than I trust "right" media these days.
Any left wing conspiracies are seriously fringe whereas on the right they are entirely mainstream. That's the difference. The left is full of bad ideas however...I will grant you that
pmward
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by pmward »

doodle wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:16 am
pmward wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:03 am
Simonjester wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
I agree with you here on quite a bit actually. Though, I see Biden as the lesser of two bad choices by a long shot. Also, I believe the lunatic conspiracy theories on the "right" are much more extreme and delusional than those on the "left", though I do agree they do exist. Both sides have their populist propaganda. But on the "right" it's like looney bin tin-foil hat level these days. I trust National Enquirer more than I trust "right" media these days.
Any left wing conspiracies are seriously fringe whereas on the right they are entirely mainstream. That's the difference. The left is full of bad ideas but doesn't seem to have the type of brain structure necessary to suspend belief and override contradictory evidence the way that people on the conservative side of the spectrum do.
Yes exactly. Though "left" media admittedly does show a lot of bias. It is really difficult to find non-partisan media these days. What I've found interesting in the last couple weeks though, is Fox News of all places starting to try to distance themselves from the tin-foil hat right delusion. Like we actually reached the tipping point where even Fox News got uncomfortable. That says a lot. It also says a lot when Trump's followers start to revolt against Fox News for taking a step back and reducing the amount (and extremity) of false propaganda they report. Like how has Trump's word become the gold standard judge of what is truth or not for millions of Americans? This fact honestly scares the shit out of me!
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1961
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by sophie »

Ad Orientem wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 pm For them Donald Trump has become a messianic figure, which is why I have said that the GOP has become a cult of personality. For the true believers, some of whom do post on this forum, they have become drunk on Trump's Kool-Aid.
Gee Ad, tell us what you really think?

I've said repeatedly that I recognize that Trump has a lot of personality issues and that his Twitter posts are an embarrassment to the office. I get all that, and so do most of his supporters (including those on the forum).

The whole issue, which you all in the Biden/Harris camp cannot seem to understand no matter how many times we say it, is that it is not the only criterion for judging the quality of a President. I happen to care far more about policies, i.e. substance, than style (i.e. the twitter rants). If you judge Trump by his policies, he is one of the most successful Presidents in decades. I decided I want more of that, and am willing to put up with his personal style in order to get it.

Not only that, but the policies promoted by the other side scare me, and will do severe, long-lasting damage to this country. Sure, Biden will act more presidential than Trump. It just depends on how you weigh those two considerations. I do not appreciate the name calling of people like me who happen to weigh those two things differently than you. I would say that this is more of a cause of the polarization you complain about constantly than anything Trump has done.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle »

Wackadoodle Michigan state senator starts singing bible songs when asked straightforward questions regarding election. Head scratcher...

https://www.reddit.com/r/cringe/commen ... ium=mweb
User avatar
Lonestar
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:56 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Lonestar »

I'd probably become a "Wackadoodle" if I had some bimbo running her mouth like that in my ear! Just watching the video reminded me of fingernails scratching on a chalkboard. How would you react to being in an airport and having someone, uninvited, following you around?
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle »

Lonestar wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:58 am I'd probably become a "Wackadoodle" if I had some bimbo running her mouth like that in my ear! Just watching the video reminded me of fingernails scratching on a chalkboard. How would you react to being in an airport and having someone, uninvited, following you around?
Considering that he is an elected official specifically called to Washington to meet with the president about overthrowing the peoples vote by conducting a legislative branch coup, I'd have the spine to answer some questions instead of just singing bible hymns. What is that about? You hate spineless politicians? Then why do you keep defending them. She didn't ask any questions that were outside the pale. The only bimbo I see is him
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Ad Orientem »

doodle wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:00 am
Simonjester wrote: And thank you to doodle for proving of the point....
I won't argue that the left doesn't have some bad ideas...but loony conspiracies....please enlighten me.

The only one I can name are the 9/11 truthers. A poll conducted around the time of the 2008 election showed a little over 1/4 of registered Democrats suspected that 9/11 was an inside job and that George Bush was involved.
glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by glennds »

Ad Orientem wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:08 pm
doodle wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:00 am
Simonjester wrote: And thank you to doodle for proving of the point....
I won't argue that the left doesn't have some bad ideas...but loony conspiracies....please enlighten me.

The only one I can name are the 9/11 truthers. A poll conducted around the time of the 2008 election showed a little over 1/4 of registered Democrats suspected that 9/11 was an inside job and that George Bush was involved.
Maybe some of that is unrelated to political parties.
We Americans love us a good conspiracy theory, always have.
Grassy knolls, faked moon landings, Area 51, Bigfoot, Walt Disney and the secret societies he belonged to,
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Ad Orientem »

glennds wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:53 pm
Ad Orientem wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:08 pm
doodle wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:00 am
Simonjester wrote: And thank you to doodle for proving of the point....
I won't argue that the left doesn't have some bad ideas...but loony conspiracies....please enlighten me.

The only one I can name are the 9/11 truthers. A poll conducted around the time of the 2008 election showed a little over 1/4 of registered Democrats suspected that 9/11 was an inside job and that George Bush was involved.
Maybe some of that is unrelated to political parties.
We Americans love us a good conspiracy theory, always have.
Grassy knolls, faked moon landings, Area 51, Bigfoot, Walt Disney and the secret societies he belonged to,

Sorry, 9/11 trutherism has always been the bat shit crazy child of the political left. Some of the kooky theories you listed cross ideological lines. But not this one. Birtherism was the political opposite, being the nutty child of the right.
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Ad Orientem »

Simonjester wrote: i thought the earliest proposition of birther-ism was a campaign ploy by Hilary against Barack in the primary's, one that was picked up by the right during the general election?

It started on the political right, though it did briefly gain a few subscribers among more hardcore Clinton supporters during the '08 primaries. But while it gained huge traction on the right, it never really caught on with anyone else.

See...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Ob ... y_theories
User avatar
Lonestar
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:56 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Lonestar »

doodle wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:04 am
Lonestar wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:58 am I'd probably become a "Wackadoodle" if I had some bimbo running her mouth like that in my ear! Just watching the video reminded me of fingernails scratching on a chalkboard. How would you react to being in an airport and having someone, uninvited, following you around?
Considering that he is an elected official specifically called to Washington to meet with the president about overthrowing the peoples vote by conducting a legislative branch coup, I'd have the spine to answer some questions instead of just singing bible hymns. What is that about? You hate spineless politicians? Then why do you keep defending them. She didn't ask any questions that were outside the pale. The only bimbo I see is him
I believe you read something into my post that was not there. I did not intend to mention the politician or judge his actions. My intent was to point out that most folks, walking through an airport and minding their own business, have the right to enjoy privacy.

Who wants a continuum of questions by an uninvited guest at an inappropriate time?

Now, on a completely different subject, I'm not sure any elected official has the obligation to answer questions at any random time. Press conferences or interviews are for that. Also, is an elected official obligated to state who they are scheduled to meet with and what the subject will be? Your assumption that this individual's mission is to "meet with the president about overthrowing the peoples vote" is just that, an assumption.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle »

Lonestar wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:41 pm
doodle wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:04 am
Lonestar wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:58 am I'd probably become a "Wackadoodle" if I had some bimbo running her mouth like that in my ear! Just watching the video reminded me of fingernails scratching on a chalkboard. How would you react to being in an airport and having someone, uninvited, following you around?
Considering that he is an elected official specifically called to Washington to meet with the president about overthrowing the peoples vote by conducting a legislative branch coup, I'd have the spine to answer some questions instead of just singing bible hymns. What is that about? You hate spineless politicians? Then why do you keep defending them. She didn't ask any questions that were outside the pale. The only bimbo I see is him
I believe you read something into my post that was not there. I did not intend to mention the politician or judge his actions. My intent was to point out that most folks, walking through an airport and minding their own business, have the right to enjoy privacy.

Who wants a continuum of questions by an uninvited guest at an inappropriate time?

Now, on a completely different subject, I'm not sure any elected official has the obligation to answer questions at any random time. Press conferences or interviews are for that. Also, is an elected official obligated to state who they are scheduled to meet with and what the subject will be? Your assumption that this individual's mission is to "meet with the president about overthrowing the peoples vote" is just that, an assumption.
My guess is that that the US taxpayer or at least the Michigan taxpayer was paying for his journey to the Whitehouse where they were going to discuss overturning the will of michigan voters. As far as I'm concerned he's on the clock and considering he is involved in a plot to undermine democracy I think answering a few questions isn't too much to ask of an elected official.
ahhrunforthehills
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by ahhrunforthehills »

doodle wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:46 am
Lonestar wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:41 pm
doodle wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:04 am
Lonestar wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:58 am I'd probably become a "Wackadoodle" if I had some bimbo running her mouth like that in my ear! Just watching the video reminded me of fingernails scratching on a chalkboard. How would you react to being in an airport and having someone, uninvited, following you around?
Considering that he is an elected official specifically called to Washington to meet with the president about overthrowing the peoples vote by conducting a legislative branch coup, I'd have the spine to answer some questions instead of just singing bible hymns. What is that about? You hate spineless politicians? Then why do you keep defending them. She didn't ask any questions that were outside the pale. The only bimbo I see is him
I believe you read something into my post that was not there. I did not intend to mention the politician or judge his actions. My intent was to point out that most folks, walking through an airport and minding their own business, have the right to enjoy privacy.

Who wants a continuum of questions by an uninvited guest at an inappropriate time?

Now, on a completely different subject, I'm not sure any elected official has the obligation to answer questions at any random time. Press conferences or interviews are for that. Also, is an elected official obligated to state who they are scheduled to meet with and what the subject will be? Your assumption that this individual's mission is to "meet with the president about overthrowing the peoples vote" is just that, an assumption.
My guess is that that the US taxpayer or at least the Michigan taxpayer was paying for his journey to the Whitehouse where they were going to discuss overturning the will of michigan voters. As far as I'm concerned he's on the clock and considering he is involved in a plot to undermine democracy I think answering a few questions isn't too much to ask of an elected official.

Ah Michigan... where 4 districts were apparently able to process 4 times more votes than their machines were physically capable of. Nothing to see there.

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov ... .7.1_2.pdf
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle »

Do you dig into any of the stuff you post? Mr. Ramslands affidavit is so professionally researched that the districts included in his case mix up Michigan with Minessota. (Screen shots of listed districts not included)

This is why these cases keep getting tossed out left and right.



----

"
The Ramsland affidavit is part of the Trump team’s case relating to Dominion. In paragraph 9, the affidavit states:

Based on the significant anomalies and red flags that we have observed, we believe there is a significant probability that election results have been manipulated within the Dominion/Premier system in Michigan.

What are those anomalies and red flags? Paragraph 11 explains:

Another statistical red flag is evident is evident in the number of votes cast compared to the number of voters in some precincts. A preliminary analysis using data obtained from the Michigan Secretary of State pinpoints a statistical anomaly so far outside of every statistical norm as to be virtually impossible. … There were at least 19 precincts where the Presidential Votes Cast compared to the Estimated Voters based on Reported Statistics exceeded 100%.

This is a screen shot of the list of 19 precincts:


Paragraph 17, continuing in the same vein, says:

Wayne County uses Dominion equipment, 46 out of 47 precincts/townships display a highly unlikely 96%+ as the number of votes cast, using the Secretary of State’s number of voters in the precinct/township; and 25% of those 47 precincts/townships show 100% turnout.

This list of 25 precincts or townships (a number that does not obviously fit with the preceding language) follows:


Here’s the problem: the townships and precincts listed in paragraphs 11 and 17 of the affidavit are not in Michigan. They are in Minnesota. Monticello, Albertville, Lake Lillian, Houston, Brownsville, Runeberg, Wolf Lake, Height of Land, Detroit Lakes, Frazee, Kandiyohi–these are all towns in Minnesota. I haven’t checked them all, but I checked a lot of them, and all locations listed in paragraphs 11 and 17 that I looked up are in Minnesota, with no corresponding township in Michigan. This would have been obvious to someone from this state, but Mr. Ramsland is a Texan and the lawyers are probably not natives of either Minnesota or Michigan.

Evidently a researcher, either Mr. Ramsland or someone working for him, was working with a database and confused “MI” for Minnesota with “MI” for Michigan. (The postal code for Minnesota is MN, while Michigan is MI, so one can see how this might happen.) So the affidavit, which addresses “anomalies and red flags” in Michigan, is based largely, and mistakenly, on data from Minnesota
.

This is a catastrophic error, the kind of thing that causes a legal position to crash and burn. Trump’s lawyers are fighting an uphill battle, to put it mildly, and confusing Michigan with Minnesota will at best make the hill steeper. Credibility once lost is hard to regain. Possibly Trump’s lawyers have already discovered this appalling error, and have undertaken to correct it. But the Ramsland Affidavit was filed in Georgia just yesterday.

A postscript: has Mr. Ramsland inadvertently stumbled across evidence of voter fraud in Minnesota? I seriously doubt it. The venues in question are all in red Greater Minnesota, not in the blue urban areas where voter fraud is common.

Trump’s lawyers have not yet had their day in court, but they will have to do a great deal better than this if they hope to succeed.
ahhrunforthehills
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by ahhrunforthehills »

doodle wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:25 am Do you dig into any of the stuff you post? Mr. Ramslands affidavit is so professionally researched that the districts included in his case mix up Michigan with Minessota. (Screen shots of listed districts not included)

This is why these cases keep getting tossed out left and right.



----

"
The Ramsland affidavit is part of the Trump team’s case relating to Dominion. In paragraph 9, the affidavit states:

Based on the significant anomalies and red flags that we have observed, we believe there is a significant probability that election results have been manipulated within the Dominion/Premier system in Michigan.

What are those anomalies and red flags? Paragraph 11 explains:

Another statistical red flag is evident is evident in the number of votes cast compared to the number of voters in some precincts. A preliminary analysis using data obtained from the Michigan Secretary of State pinpoints a statistical anomaly so far outside of every statistical norm as to be virtually impossible. … There were at least 19 precincts where the Presidential Votes Cast compared to the Estimated Voters based on Reported Statistics exceeded 100%.

This is a screen shot of the list of 19 precincts:


Paragraph 17, continuing in the same vein, says:

Wayne County uses Dominion equipment, 46 out of 47 precincts/townships display a highly unlikely 96%+ as the number of votes cast, using the Secretary of State’s number of voters in the precinct/township; and 25% of those 47 precincts/townships show 100% turnout.

This list of 25 precincts or townships (a number that does not obviously fit with the preceding language) follows:


Here’s the problem: the townships and precincts listed in paragraphs 11 and 17 of the affidavit are not in Michigan. They are in Minnesota. Monticello, Albertville, Lake Lillian, Houston, Brownsville, Runeberg, Wolf Lake, Height of Land, Detroit Lakes, Frazee, Kandiyohi–these are all towns in Minnesota. I haven’t checked them all, but I checked a lot of them, and all locations listed in paragraphs 11 and 17 that I looked up are in Minnesota, with no corresponding township in Michigan. This would have been obvious to someone from this state, but Mr. Ramsland is a Texan and the lawyers are probably not natives of either Minnesota or Michigan.

Evidently a researcher, either Mr. Ramsland or someone working for him, was working with a database and confused “MI” for Minnesota with “MI” for Michigan. (The postal code for Minnesota is MN, while Michigan is MI, so one can see how this might happen.) So the affidavit, which addresses “anomalies and red flags” in Michigan, is based largely, and mistakenly, on data from Minnesota
.

This is a catastrophic error, the kind of thing that causes a legal position to crash and burn. Trump’s lawyers are fighting an uphill battle, to put it mildly, and confusing Michigan with Minnesota will at best make the hill steeper. Credibility once lost is hard to regain. Possibly Trump’s lawyers have already discovered this appalling error, and have undertaken to correct it. But the Ramsland Affidavit was filed in Georgia just yesterday.

A postscript: has Mr. Ramsland inadvertently stumbled across evidence of voter fraud in Minnesota? I seriously doubt it. The venues in question are all in red Greater Minnesota, not in the blue urban areas where voter fraud is common.

Trump’s lawyers have not yet had their day in court, but they will have to do a great deal better than this if they hope to succeed.
Lol. Do you dig into any of the stuff you post?!?!

I didn't direct you to #11 on page 2-3. I directed you to #13 on pages 4-5. Kent, Macomb, Oakland, and Wayne are all counties in Michigan.

The quote you provided was laughable. "This is a catastrophic error, the kind of thing that causes a legal position to crash and burn". lol. Talk about flare for the dramatic.

The affidavit has multiple accusations. You only need ONE accusation to meet the low threshold of plausibility in a courtroom to advance the case towards the discovery phase. That is how the court system in our country really works.... that is why lawsuits ALWAYS throw the spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.

If you are able to defeat 99% of 100 claims I make against you... I still won.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle »

When the affidavit can't even keep Minnesota and Michigan straight what gives you any confidence that anything else in there is correct? You can keep throwing the spaghetti...but at some point the reasonable voices like Christie come out and start calling the whole thing a national embarrassment. At that point you can go back into your bunker and prepare for the coming illegitimate Biden apocalypse or accept the reality (as Trump seems to be coming around to) that your man lost and get on with life. Either way, in 60 days based on all the evidence we will have a new President. My guess is that these lawsuits will peter out by the end of the month.
ahhrunforthehills
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by ahhrunforthehills »

doodle wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:50 am When the affidavit can't even keep Minnesota and Michigan straight what gives you any confidence that anything else in there is correct? You can keep throwing the spaghetti...but at some point the reasonable voices like Christie come out and start calling the whole thing a national embarrassment. At that point you can go back into your bunker and prepare for the coming illegitimate Biden apocalypse or accept the reality (as Trump seems to be coming around to) that your man lost and get on with life. Either way, in 60 days based on all the evidence we will have a new President. My guess is that these lawsuits will peter out by the end of the month.
Why does MY CONFIDENCE matter?

You seem to be talking about how YOU think the US Court System should work... I am talking about how the system ACTUALLY works.

Lawsuits are not a popularity contest in the beginning. "Overall opinions" matter zero for the initial pleadings. I am straight-up telling you how the courts handle lawsuits. Again, the bar of evidence is absurdly low to bring a suit and have it proceed to discovery.

You assume that Trump is "my guy". But again, you are simply allowing your emotions to drive your own narrative. Perhaps Hillary should have won in 2016... perhaps Bernie should have been the nominee instead of her. Your emotions are blinding you from the bigger picture.

Maybe the evidence will bear fruit or maybe it won't. Investigating our election system is the most pro-democracy thing that can be done. I find it sad that people that claim to be "pro-democracy" claim otherwise. If they uncover nothing... that is a great thing (since we can have confidence in it). If they uncover something... that is a great thing (since it can be fixed).
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle »

ahhrunforthehills wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:34 am
doodle wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:50 am When the affidavit can't even keep Minnesota and Michigan straight what gives you any confidence that anything else in there is correct? You can keep throwing the spaghetti...but at some point the reasonable voices like Christie come out and start calling the whole thing a national embarrassment. At that point you can go back into your bunker and prepare for the coming illegitimate Biden apocalypse or accept the reality (as Trump seems to be coming around to) that your man lost and get on with life. Either way, in 60 days based on all the evidence we will have a new President. My guess is that these lawsuits will peter out by the end of the month.
Why does MY CONFIDENCE matter?

You seem to be talking about how YOU think the US Court System should work... I am talking about how the system ACTUALLY works.

Lawsuits are not a popularity contest in the beginning. "Overall opinions" matter zero for the initial pleadings. I am straight-up telling you how the courts handle lawsuits. Again, the bar of evidence is absurdly low to bring a suit and have it proceed to discovery.

You assume that Trump is "my guy". But again, you are simply allowing your emotions to drive your own narrative. Perhaps Hillary should have won in 2016... perhaps Bernie should have been the nominee instead of her. Your emotions are blinding you from the bigger picture.

Maybe the evidence will bear fruit or maybe it won't. Investigating our election system is the most pro-democracy thing that can be done. I find it sad that people that claim to be "pro-democracy" claim otherwise. If they uncover nothing... that is a great thing (since we can have confidence in it). If they uncover something... that is a great thing (since it can be fixed).
Now that Biden transition has been allowed to go forward I have less opposition to all of this.

In the end if they find nothing of substance and say so, then I will be ok with that. Sure, let them dig. But the fact that all of their lawsuits to date have been thrown out reeks like a desperate grasping attempt to throw doubt on a process. My hunch is they will soil our democracy to protect Donald's fragile ego. The damage from that will be lasting.
Post Reply