Trump self pardon

[Cortopassi]

Awesome. The courts are all in on it too.

[Cortopassi]

For anyone who knows, what would a pardon, say, for family members entail, before any crime has been charged?

--Is something like this able to be worded along the lines of for now and in perpetuity I hereby grant a pardon to xxxx?
--Or does it have to be for something in the works, or a certain date range ending Jan 20,2021?
--Or something else?

I am just wondering if say Jared commits a federal crime 10 years from now, can something like that possibly be covered?

[glennds]

For anyone who knows, what would a pardon, say, for family members entail, before any crime has been charged?

--Is something like this able to be worded along the lines of for now and in perpetuity I hereby grant a pardon to xxxx?
--Or does it have to be for something in the works, or a certain date range ending Jan 20,2021?
--Or something else?

I am just wondering if say Jared commits a federal crime 10 years from now, can something like that possibly be covered?

It's pretty much universally agreed that the pardon is only applicable to crimes committed up to the date of the pardon, even if the crimes have not been charged.
So a crime committed by Jared on or before the pardon date, but not charged for some time would be covered. A crime committed after the pardon date would not be covered.

I think the idea of a self-pardon is outrageous no matter who it is and no matter what level of rationalization or justification the most creative minds could come up with. The principle of a person not acting as their own judge is a principle that goes back to the Magna Carta in the 13th century. If Trump tries it, it will be tested and it will fail.
If not for the above reasons, then for the purpose of not setting a precedent that any future President may break any Federal laws at will and without consequences. That would be one hell of a message to send in a country that purports to respect the principles of democracy and rule of law.

[doodle]

WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump issued 26 pardons and three commutations to loyalists Wednesday evening, in the final weeks of his presidency.

Trump pardoned Charles Kushner, the father of his son-in-law, Jared Kushner as well as Paul Manafort, his 2016 campaign chairman, and Roger Stone, his longtime informal adviser and confidant.

Chris Christie: Jared Kushner's father committed 'one of the most loathsome, disgusting crimes' I prosecuted

Couldn't help but make me feel ashamed to live in a land where justice is a game.

-Bob Dylan - Hurricane

[boglerdude]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVjL5rUx3TM

Frontline vid about Alex Jones, Trump and Stone.

[I Shrugged]

You should not be able to pardon yourself, for obvious reasons.

[vnatale]

You should not be able to pardon yourself, for obvious reasons.

I forget what our Constitutionalists say here. The ones who believe we should always follow the Constitution and it is always so clear as to what is permissible or not.

Can or can he not pardon himself according to what the Constitution says?

For the record, I have never been a Constitution worshiper.

Vinny

[glennds]

You should not be able to pardon yourself, for obvious reasons.

I forget what our Constitutionalists say here. The ones who believe we should always follow the Constitution and it is always so clear as to what is permissible or not.

Can or can he not pardon himself according to what the Constitution says?

For the record, I have never been a Constitution worshiper.

Vinny

Vinny,
The Constitution doesn't specifically prohibit it. So for that reason, there are those who believe (or want to believe) that it is allowed. The problem is that self-pardon is effectively allowing a person to act as their own judge, which is an idea that is in conflict with the most basic ideas underlying the US legal system, and a clear legal doctrine that goes back to the Magna Carta.

But since no President has ever tried it before, the act has never been brought to the Supreme Court for a test of Constitutionality.
I think most hard boiled Constitutionalists would be against the idea. However, I have heard some on this forum take the position that what would normally be unthinkable, unacceptable, Constitutionally impermissible acts would be completely acceptable if Trump did them because the Democrats are just that evil and therefore exceptions are warranted.

If this is something Trump really wants to do, I would think the better strategy might be to resign a day or two before the end of his term, and have Pence issue him the pardon.

If democracy were a Renaissance Michelangelo sculpture, we're now to the point of spray painting it with graffiti tags and doing lines of cocaine off the base.

[vnatale]

You should not be able to pardon yourself, for obvious reasons.

I forget what our Constitutionalists say here. The ones who believe we should always follow the Constitution and it is always so clear as to what is permissible or not.

Can or can he not pardon himself according to what the Constitution says?

For the record, I have never been a Constitution worshiper.

Vinny

Vinny,
The Constitution doesn't specifically prohibit it. So for that reason, there are those who believe (or want to believe) that it is allowed. The problem is that self-pardon is effectively allowing a person to act as their own judge, which is an idea that is in conflict with the most basic ideas underlying the US legal system, and a clear legal doctrine that goes back to the Magna Carta.

But since no President has ever tried it before, the act has never been brought to the Supreme Court for a test of Constitutionality.
I think most hard boiled Constitutionalists would be against the idea. However, I have heard some on this forum take the position that what would normally be unthinkable, unacceptable, Constitutionally impermissible acts would be completely acceptable if Trump did them because the Democrats are just that evil and therefore exceptions are warranted.

If this is something Trump really wants to do, I would think the better strategy might be to resign a day or two before the end of his term, and have Pence issue him the pardon.

If democracy were a Renaissance Michelangelo sculpture, we're now to the point of spray painting it with graffiti tags and doing lines of cocaine off the base.

As usual....you make the same point far more powerfully than I could ever dream of making!

Vinny