Minneapolis violence surges as cops quit in droves

[Ad Orientem]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ts-wrapper

[doodle]

I don't know why anyone would want to work in policing nowadays. That whole industry is going to have to get reimagined.

[doodle]

Tom, you might find this JRE interview with former Baltimore Cop interesting.


https://youtu.be/Ndg-JGmYryA

[sophie]

So why the complaints? Both the city council and the black neighborhoods got what they wanted, right? A defunded and dismantled police force. Too bad they don't like the results, which were entirely predictable.

I do feel bad for the innocent victims of this mess, but part of me is thinking that this could have a big, red impact on the midterm elections, if the non-criminal segment of the minority populations suffering the most from this triumph of liberal ideology shift their votes to Republicans.

[doodle]

I really think it would be beneficial for you guys to listen to the experience of an exmarine / ex cop who spent 11 years working in the inner city in Baltimore. I think it would open your eyes to some realities of the policies relationships with minorities.

[boglerdude]

Body cams. Bust public sector unions
https://www.reddit.com/r/moderatepoliti ... s/g32xfai/

Cops or teachers get together and say, "pay us more or we'll strike" and we're held hostage.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... ng-schools

https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comm ... re_now_14/

[doodle]

I don't know why anyone would want to work in policing nowadays. That whole industry is going to have to get reimagined.

Doodle,

Perhaps you can share your ideas on how policing should work.

How should a cop respond when he commands a suspect not to move and the suspect reaches for something unseen?

How about if the suspect has a knife and continues to approach the officer?

How about if the officer tries to get the handcuffed suspect to sit in a vehicle and the suspect is hundreds of pounds of muscle stronger and fights his way out of the vehicle refusing to comply?

How about if protesters are blocking a city street surrounding cars and banging on the cars with fists and hammers?

Please help me better understand how policing should look. Without sidetracking to how it shouldn’t look. Since we all know how it shouldn’t look. So tell us how to fix it please.

I think just like alcoholism or drug addiction, the first step to fixing policing is admiting that there is a problem. As an upper class white male I don't think that you think that there is an issue with policing....and there isn't, for you. I'd really encourage you to listen to this Rogan interview with Dr. Michael Wood Jr. a former USMC sargeant and baltimore police officer. It helped me understand a lot of situations that I think you and I have no exposure to. I think it's important to understand what policing is like in our inner cities before we can hope to know what steps should be taken to address it. The fact that a movement like BLM exists is proof itself that there is a problem. Millions of people don't rise up in unison like that when everything is functioning ok.


https://youtu.be/Ndg-JGmYryA


I think the issue with police is also complicated...rooted in a system that was intentionally oppressive, confrontational and escalatory, often driven by fear and motivated by profit...and definitely not color blind. Let me give you a personal example.

I rode a bike exclusively in my city for many years. I didn't own a car. I also dressed quite slovenly because I did a lot of dirty work for extra money. On many occasions while riding a bike I would blow through stop signs or through red lights in front of cops....never was I stopped or pulled over. On other occasions Id have to sometimes ride while carrying another bike over my shoulder (like I literally stole it)...usually because it was raining and my girlfriend (who didn't own a car either) had gotten a lift to work and needed a way to get home so I'd drop a bike off to her. I lived next to police station so I'd pass sometimes half a dozen cops while dropping off this bike. I was never pulled over. I would ride on sidewalks as opposed to in the street in the bike lane when it was dark outside...never pulled over. I rode through million dollar neighborhoods late at night, never pulled over...I'd walk into supermarkets with my bike instead of locking up outside...never confronted. I'd even ride while drinking beer...open container violation....never pulled over.

I'm 100% sure that my experience would have been entirely different if I were black. I'm sure of this because I used to work with a Jamaican guy in college whose shift ended at the same time mine did...10pm. We both lived in the same general direction and had to traverse through an upper class neighborhood for about a mile. I had a bike so I rode...he walked. In the six months I worked with him he was stopped and questioned by police no less than half a dozen times on that walk home. I was never stopped even once. He told me that happened to him all the time.

Now, back to my experience. When I would ride I'd sometimes carry a pocketknife or a leatherman. Say I was pulled over for running a stop sign. Then the police pats me down....I don't know the laws but say my knife was 4.5 inches instead of 4 inches. Maybe I'm then arrested for that. Can't post bail. Lose my job...anyways you can see how easy it is for things to spiral downward.

If you listen to that interview (even just the first 20 minutes) I think it will become evident that change is needed.

As for those specific situations, I don't know. Sometimes force is warranted..however, how much training do cops really have? Do they understand descalation psychology? Do they understand how to employ the proper amount of force or are they body slamming a twelve year old into the cement? Are you factoring in that this person might have been pulled over half a dozen times for walking home from work and just had a fight with his girlfriend and maybe is not in the mood and mouths off to cop? Perhaps the cop then decides to escalate things? Perhaps the individual has a mental disorder and showing up with guns drawn and yelling at them isn't the best tactic to defuse a situation. I don't know all the scenarios. Is force...even lethal force justified sometimes? I'm sure it is.....but that is not what BLM is about. It's about my Jamaican friend...and the millions like him who have had to deal with a systemic historical issue. It's important to remember that in my southern city the police force was still segregated until the late 1960s. People I worked with still could remember a time when they couldn't go to certain beaches because they were white only. America has a sordid past when it comes to race and that history occasionally comes back to haunt us because our institutions haven't figured out how to adapt.

Oh, and not to introduce politics into this, but the shit that Trump says like this doesn't help.

"Now, we're getting them [criminals] out anyway, but we'd like to get them out a lot faster, and when you see these towns and when you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just see them thrown in, rough, I said, please don't be too nice. Like when you guys put somebody in the car and you're protecting their head, you know, the way you put their hand over, like, don't hit their head and they've just killed somebody. Don't hit their head. I said, you can take the hand away, okay?"

[doodle]

How about this...off duty cop pulling people over without justification...for looking suspicious (what he means to say is black). This ever happen to any of you? Now couple that with a justice system where cops raid meat processing plants and handcuff immigrant workers while the owner who hired them doesn't even get a slap on wrist. Yeah, it's time for a change.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreako ... dium=mweb

[sophie]

Please help me better understand how policing should look. Without sidetracking to how it shouldn’t look. Since we all know how it shouldn’t look. So tell us how to fix it please.

So I guess the answer is "it's complicated"?

Translation: the problem is unfixable until the high rate of criminal behavior among certain groups is solved. Which is what we've all been saying all along. Unfortunately, the solution to that is never going to something fed to that community from the outside. They'll never accept it. They need to recognize that there's a problem and solve it from within.

Being upset about it is commendable of you, but not helpful.

[doodle]

Please help me better understand how policing should look. Without sidetracking to how it shouldn’t look. Since we all know how it shouldn’t look. So tell us how to fix it please.

So I guess the answer is "it's complicated"?

Translation: the problem is unfixable until the high rate of criminal behavior among certain groups is solved. Which is what we've all been saying all along. Unfortunately, the solution to that is never going to something fed to that community from the outside. They'll never accept it. They need to recognize that there's a problem and solve it from within.

Being upset about it is commendable of you, but not helpful.

I think the high rate of criminal behavior oftentimes is a symptom of where we place our focus. I think the war on drugs for example has been incredibly destructive to black communities coupled with systemic racism that prevented wealth accumulation for more than a century after the abolishment of slavery. I think we are all in this together...the black community needs to take responsibility and we need to recognize the role we have played as well. Again, please listen to that cop talk about his experiences working in Baltimore. I think his epiphany might help some understand where BLM is coming from.

As far as solutions there are many working on options. Civilian Led Policing is one solution that has been put forward. Is it the be all end all? Maybe not, but it's a start. We need to get the ball rolling. Incremental steps are better than standing still with the status quo.

[boglerdude]

Picking "defund the police" as a slogan drives people to the right. Bodycams. Union bust. UBI. No one I know cares about race.

[doodle]

Defund the police is a stupid platform. If anything we need more training and resources, not less. However, there are many jobs police are called to handle that would probably be better dealt with social workers and a comprehensive community plan. I'd say a full quarter if not half of police calls in my city dealt with issues stemming from homelessness and drugs....neither of which are criminal in nature but would drive people to act in erratic, dangerous and disturbing ways.

[vnatale]

Defund the police is a stupid platform. If anything we need more training and resources, not less. However, there are many jobs police are called to handle that would probably be better dealt with social workers and a comprehensive community plan. I'd say a full quarter if not half of police calls in my city dealt with issues stemming from homelessness and drugs....neither of which are criminal in nature but would drive people to act in erratic, dangerous and disturbing ways.

Last night I listened to the full former Baltimore policeman video that you (??) had several times exhorted Sophie to watch?

It was excellent. All nearly 2 1/2 hours of it! I think it may have been the longest that type video I'd ever watched it my life. For the first 2 hours I listened while using my eyes to get some computer work done.

At the end he was asked what would be the prototypical successful policeman. He answered, not to sound too full of myself...but me! Masters degree, former military (trained to shoot with accuracy but only shoot under clear rules of engagement), in top physical condition, and so on.

But he said someone like him would never work for the starting salary of $42,000.

He said that the right police people could to the work of three to five inferior police people. He said 1,000 of the right police could do a better job than the current 3,000 Baltimore police force.

During the video he made so many excellent, logical points. Thanks for bringing the video to this forum.

Vinny

[Ad Orientem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8H__V2 ... el=660NEWS

[doodle]

Defund the police is a stupid platform. If anything we need more training and resources, not less. However, there are many jobs police are called to handle that would probably be better dealt with social workers and a comprehensive community plan. I'd say a full quarter if not half of police calls in my city dealt with issues stemming from homelessness and drugs....neither of which are criminal in nature but would drive people to act in erratic, dangerous and disturbing ways.

Last night I listened to the full former Baltimore policeman video that you (??) had several times exhorted Sophie to watch?

It was excellent. All nearly 2 1/2 hours of it! I think it may have been the longest that type video I'd ever watched it my life. For the first 2 hours I listened while using my eyes to get some computer work done.

At the end he was asked what would be the prototypical successful policeman. He answered, not to sound too full of myself...but me! Masters degree, former military (trained to shoot with accuracy but only shoot under clear rules of engagement), in top physical condition, and so on.

But he said someone like him would never work for the starting salary of $42,000.

He said that the right police people could to the work of three to five inferior police people. He said 1,000 of the right police could do a better job than the current 3,000 Baltimore police force.

During the video he made so many excellent, logical points. Thanks for bringing the video to this forum.

Vinny

Was looking up a few things regarding Civilian Led Policing...I guess his master's became a doctorate. I hope his message gains traction. I think he has some solid ideas on how to begin to tackle the issues that have led to BLM.

[doodle]

https://apnews.com/article/lil-wayne-g ... 65402b83

But really justice revolves around money...lil wayne...felony possession of gun and illegal drugs. I'd be surprised if he spends even one night in jail. Your average black man...10 years at least.

[vnatale]

Defund the police is a stupid platform. If anything we need more training and resources, not less. However, there are many jobs police are called to handle that would probably be better dealt with social workers and a comprehensive community plan. I'd say a full quarter if not half of police calls in my city dealt with issues stemming from homelessness and drugs....neither of which are criminal in nature but would drive people to act in erratic, dangerous and disturbing ways.

Last night I listened to the full former Baltimore policeman video that you (??) had several times exhorted Sophie to watch?

It was excellent. All nearly 2 1/2 hours of it! I think it may have been the longest that type video I'd ever watched it my life. For the first 2 hours I listened while using my eyes to get some computer work done.

At the end he was asked what would be the prototypical successful policeman. He answered, not to sound too full of myself...but me! Masters degree, former military (trained to shoot with accuracy but only shoot under clear rules of engagement), in top physical condition, and so on.

But he said someone like him would never work for the starting salary of $42,000.

He said that the right police people could to the work of three to five inferior police people. He said 1,000 of the right police could do a better job than the current 3,000 Baltimore police force.

During the video he made so many excellent, logical points. Thanks for bringing the video to this forum.

Vinny

Was looking up a few things regarding Civilian Led Policing...I guess his master's became a doctorate. I hope his message gains traction. I think he has some solid ideas on how to begin to tackle the issues that have led to BLM.

Had you visited his Amazon author page?

An impressive list of publications: https://www.amazon.com/Michael-A-Wood-J ... 874&sr=1-1

Plus, this impressive description of him: About Michael A. Wood Jr.
Dr. Wood is a father, husband, USMC vet, retired Baltimore Police, scientist, author, and scholar; has stared [sic] in numerous documentaries and hundreds of media appearances; published fiction and non-fiction; summa cum laude, B.S. Criminal Justice (Kaplan/Purdue), M.S. Business Management InfoTech (Kaplan/Purdue), Ph.D. Business Management Education (Capella).

Clearly seems to be someone whose opinion matters when it comes to policing!

Vinny

[doodle]

Did anyone expect anything different? Defunding the police is an asinine idea.

I do find it a bit ironic that anarchist libertarians so sensitive to the abuse of power by government are coming out in such strong support for the police however. As far as finding abuse of power goes in government I'm not sure there is a better place to start than with police forces.

[Tortoise]

Our resident Minnesotan @moda0306 (who lives near Minneapolis) posted back in June that he thinks the Minneapolis police department should be "shattered into a thousand pieces". But he said they should be "reformed", which is presumably different from "defunded".

He doesn't post here very often, but if he happens to see this, maybe he can chime in to let us know if his thoughts on the Minneapolis PD situation have changed in any way since June.

[doodle]

Did anyone expect anything different? Defunding the police is an asinine idea.

Apparently BLM, Anitfa and the other idiots calling for it did...

BLM I think was an emotional reaction to legitimate grievances. I think it would be helpful to listen to that link I posted to the Baltimore cop for a first hand account of what some of those might be.

Antifa is to the democrats what QAnon is to the Republicans...very confused people.

I don't think any serious people support defunding the police. Once again, the media focuses on the crazies.

[vnatale]

Did anyone expect anything different? Defunding the police is an asinine idea.

Apparently BLM, Anitfa and the other idiots calling for it did...

BLM I think was an emotional reaction to legitimate grievances. I think it would be helpful to listen to that link I posted to the Baltimore cop for a first hand account of what some of those might be.

Antifa is to the democrats what QAnon is to the Republicans...very confused people.

I don't think any serious people support defunding the police. Once again, the media focuses on the crazies.

We were just earlier informed in the YouTube topic that Joe Rogan is no longer available there so that interview with the former member of the Baltimore police force may also no longer be available?

Vinny

[Libertarian666]

Did anyone expect anything different? Defunding the police is an asinine idea.

Apparently BLM, Anitfa and the other idiots calling for it did...

I disagree. BLM and Antifa are getting exactly what they wanted and expected: chaos that allows them free rein over the public in those places.

[Libertarian666]

Did anyone expect anything different? Defunding the police is an asinine idea.

Apparently BLM, Anitfa and the other idiots calling for it did...

BLM I think was an emotional reaction to legitimate grievances. I think it would be helpful to listen to that link I posted to the Baltimore cop for a first hand account of what some of those might be.

Antifa is to the democrats what QAnon is to the Republicans...very confused people.

I don't think any serious people support defunding the police. Once again, the media focuses on the crazies.

I don't know much about QAnon, but I do know they aren't rioting and looting.

Maybe they're doing it in secret?

[Mountaineer]

Did anyone expect anything different? Defunding the police is an asinine idea.

Apparently BLM, Anitfa and the other idiots calling for it did...

BLM I think was an emotional reaction to legitimate grievances. I think it would be helpful to listen to that link I posted to the Baltimore cop for a first hand account of what some of those might be.

Antifa is to the democrats what QAnon is to the Republicans...very confused people.

I don't think any serious people support defunding the police. Once again, the media focuses on the crazies.

I don't know much about QAnon, but I do know they aren't rioting and looting.

Maybe they're doing it in secret?

In Old Dominion and further south under the Peachtrees.

[doodle]

The right has plenty of violent crazies...from the bugaloo boys plotting kidnap and murder to McVeigh blowing up federal building. No reasonable voice on the left supports the tactics of some of the individuals in antifa...as I'm sure reasonable voices on the right denounce the crazies on their side of the aisle.