Florida 2000

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doodle
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Florida 2000

Post by doodle » Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:49 am

Any comments regarding this version of what happened in Florida in 2000?

THE 2000 ELECTION took place on November 7. By that night, it was clear that Gore had won the national popular vote, but that whoever took Florida would win the Electoral College and the presidency. The Florida vote was so close that the networks alternately declared both Gore and Bush the winner, and Gore called Bush to concede and then called him back to retract his concession.

The Florida Division of Elections announced the next day that Bush had won the state by 1,784 votes. However, this margin was so small that Florida law required a machine recount of the state, which reduced Bush’s lead to 327.

The presidential choice on about 170,000 ballots could not be read by machine. Of these, 60,000 were “undervotes” — for instance, the voter had not fully punched through the ballot’s relevant perforated box. The remaining 110,000 were “overvotes,” in which the voter may have voted normally for Bush or Gore but also wrote in their name.

The Gore campaign requested a recount by hand in four heavily Democratic counties. The Bush campaign sued to stop this. The Gore campaign’s efforts then disappeared for the next month into a mind-numbingly complex legal process, overflowing with ballot-design and deadline minutiae that no normal American could follow.

Meanwhile, the Republican Party conducted a nationwide PR campaign with a message Americans could follow: that Gore was a pathetic sore loser who simply would not accept that he’d been defeated. Much of the national media eagerly adopted this frame.

On December 8, the Florida Supreme Court rejected Gore’s request for a hand recount in four counties. Instead, it ordered a statewide hand recount of undervotes, with the decisions being made according to the “intent of the voter.”

The U.S. Supreme Court then halted this recount on December 12, declaring that since different Florida counties used different voting methods, the voter intent standard violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution.

Gore could theoretically have asked the Florida Supreme Court to order a statewide recount with more explicit standards. But he took the advice of one of his lawyers, who told him that this would “cause a tremendous uproar.” And in any case, as the book “Deadlock” later put it, “the best Gore could hope for was a slate of disputed electors” — i.e., he might become president, but Republicans would complain about it.

Thus, Gore conceded to Bush again, in a speech full of high-minded rhetoric about “the law” and how his surrender could “point us all to a new common ground.” Bush officially won Florida by 537 votes and the Electoral College by 271-266 and went on to become one of the most catastrophic presidents in U.S. history.

A year later, in November 2001, the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago announced the results of an examination of all 170,000 undervotes and overvotes.

NORC found that with a full statewide hand recount, Gore would have won Florida under every possible vote standard. Depending on which standard was used, his margin of victory would have varied from 60 to 171 votes.

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Re: Florida 2000

Post by Tortoise » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:06 pm

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Re: Florida 2000

Post by doodle » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:42 pm

I was trying to recall what happened back in 2000 since I was still relatively young. I remember the legal battle and being fed up with Gore at the time...but I had no idea it was that close. I have heard this brought up as an example regarding this most recent election but it seems like a completely different scenario.

As I posted in other thread as well, I didn't know that Trump has used accusations of fraud before...just not on this scale. I guess this was to have been expected.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by boglerdude » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:30 pm

"one of the most catastrophic presidents in U.S. history" Lost me. Steelmanning > strawmanning

Speaking of extreme views, techno is in his bunker?

https://old.reddit.com/r/neoconNWO/
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by pp4me » Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm

Other recounts were done after the fact that showed Bush won so it all boils down to who you want to believe.

What's not accounted for is what happened in the Panhandle when the news called Bush the winner before the polls closed. No way to know how many people heard that and decided they didn't need to vote on their way home from work. The Panhandle is in a different time zone and heavily Republican.

Just saw something on FoxNews about a court ruling in PA saying that the sec. of state overstepped her authority by extending the voting deadline. This is the same kind of thing I remember from the 2000 FL fiasco and why the supreme court finally put a stop to it. Votes were supposed to be in by a certain deadline and when they weren't, the FL supreme court said that's okay and the U.S. supreme court said no. At least that's the way I remember it, though I may not have the exact details right.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by doodle » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:07 pm

pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Other recounts were done after the fact that showed Bush won so it all boils down to who you want to believe.

What's not accounted for is what happened in the Panhandle when the news called Bush the winner before the polls closed. No way to know how many people heard that and decided they didn't need to vote on their way home from work. The Panhandle is in a different time zone and heavily Republican.

Just saw something on FoxNews about a court ruling in PA saying that the sec. of state overstepped her authority by extending the voting deadline. This is the same kind of thing I remember from the 2000 FL fiasco and why the supreme court finally put a stop to it. Votes were supposed to be in by a certain deadline and when they weren't, the FL supreme court said that's okay and the U.S. supreme court said no. At least that's the way I remember it, though I may not have the exact details right.
It wasn't a time issue...it was the butterfly ballot/hanging chad issue primarily....bad ballot design leaving voters intention oftentimes up for interpretation.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by pp4me » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:09 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:07 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Other recounts were done after the fact that showed Bush won so it all boils down to who you want to believe.

What's not accounted for is what happened in the Panhandle when the news called Bush the winner before the polls closed. No way to know how many people heard that and decided they didn't need to vote on their way home from work. The Panhandle is in a different time zone and heavily Republican.

Just saw something on FoxNews about a court ruling in PA saying that the sec. of state overstepped her authority by extending the voting deadline. This is the same kind of thing I remember from the 2000 FL fiasco and why the supreme court finally put a stop to it. Votes were supposed to be in by a certain deadline and when they weren't, the FL supreme court said that's okay and the U.S. supreme court said no. At least that's the way I remember it, though I may not have the exact details right.
It wasn't a time issue...it was the butterfly ballot/hanging chad issue primarily....bad ballot design leaving voters intention oftentimes up for interpretation.
I don't think that is correct. The Supreme court wasn't looking at hanging chads. They were looking at the law. Bad ballot design was in the democrat counties down south as I recall it.

I'm pretty sure you can find the supreme court decision online if you want to read it and let us know what it really said. I haven't done that myself. Back then I actually had to go to work and make a living so I didn't have as much time as I do now.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by vnatale » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:26 pm

pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Other recounts were done after the fact that showed Bush won so it all boils down to who you want to believe.

What's not accounted for is what happened in the Panhandle when the news called Bush the winner before the polls closed. No way to know how many people heard that and decided they didn't need to vote on their way home from work. The Panhandle is in a different time zone and heavily Republican.

Just saw something on FoxNews about a court ruling in PA saying that the sec. of state overstepped her authority by extending the voting deadline. This is the same kind of thing I remember from the 2000 FL fiasco and why the supreme court finally put a stop to it. Votes were supposed to be in by a certain deadline and when they weren't, the FL supreme court said that's okay and the U.S. supreme court said no. At least that's the way I remember it, though I may not have the exact details right.
I don't think your memory is correct on this. It was the recount in January that the Supreme Court stopped. It was the most logical, indefensible ruling in that it basically stated that if the counting continued it could jeopardize Bush winning the election. For all the harping the conservatives / Republicans do about not wanting Justices who legislate, rule from the bench this was about the most blatant, partisan Supreme Court ruling ever. A total disgrace.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by vnatale » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:29 pm

pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:09 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:07 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Other recounts were done after the fact that showed Bush won so it all boils down to who you want to believe.

What's not accounted for is what happened in the Panhandle when the news called Bush the winner before the polls closed. No way to know how many people heard that and decided they didn't need to vote on their way home from work. The Panhandle is in a different time zone and heavily Republican.

Just saw something on FoxNews about a court ruling in PA saying that the sec. of state overstepped her authority by extending the voting deadline. This is the same kind of thing I remember from the 2000 FL fiasco and why the supreme court finally put a stop to it. Votes were supposed to be in by a certain deadline and when they weren't, the FL supreme court said that's okay and the U.S. supreme court said no. At least that's the way I remember it, though I may not have the exact details right.
It wasn't a time issue...it was the butterfly ballot/hanging chad issue primarily....bad ballot design leaving voters intention oftentimes up for interpretation.
I don't think that is correct. The Supreme court wasn't looking at hanging chads. They were looking at the law. Bad ballot design was in the democrat counties down south as I recall it.

I'm pretty sure you can find the supreme court decision online if you want to read it and let us know what it really said. I haven't done that myself. Back then I actually had to go to work and make a living so I didn't have as much time as I do now.
You can either read the entire book. Or, I might suspect you might want to just read this review of the book:

THE BETRAYAL OF AMERICA: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President

https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-56025-355-6


Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by doodle » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:55 am

vnatale wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:26 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Other recounts were done after the fact that showed Bush won so it all boils down to who you want to believe.

What's not accounted for is what happened in the Panhandle when the news called Bush the winner before the polls closed. No way to know how many people heard that and decided they didn't need to vote on their way home from work. The Panhandle is in a different time zone and heavily Republican.

Just saw something on FoxNews about a court ruling in PA saying that the sec. of state overstepped her authority by extending the voting deadline. This is the same kind of thing I remember from the 2000 FL fiasco and why the supreme court finally put a stop to it. Votes were supposed to be in by a certain deadline and when they weren't, the FL supreme court said that's okay and the U.S. supreme court said no. At least that's the way I remember it, though I may not have the exact details right.
I don't think your memory is correct on this. It was the recount in January that the Supreme Court stopped. It was the most logical, indefensible ruling in that it basically stated that if the counting continued it could jeopardize Bush winning the election. For all the harping the conservatives / Republicans do about not wanting Justices who legislate, rule from the bench this was about the most blatant, partisan Supreme Court ruling ever. A total disgrace.

Vinny
That's more along the lines of how I remember it. As Tom Friedman said...in 2000 Al Gore took a bullet for the country, 20 years later Trump put a bullet into the country.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:28 am

vnatale wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:26 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Other recounts were done after the fact that showed Bush won so it all boils down to who you want to believe.

What's not accounted for is what happened in the Panhandle when the news called Bush the winner before the polls closed. No way to know how many people heard that and decided they didn't need to vote on their way home from work. The Panhandle is in a different time zone and heavily Republican.

Just saw something on FoxNews about a court ruling in PA saying that the sec. of state overstepped her authority by extending the voting deadline. This is the same kind of thing I remember from the 2000 FL fiasco and why the supreme court finally put a stop to it. Votes were supposed to be in by a certain deadline and when they weren't, the FL supreme court said that's okay and the U.S. supreme court said no. At least that's the way I remember it, though I may not have the exact details right.
I don't think your memory is correct on this. It was the recount in January that the Supreme Court stopped. It was the most logical, indefensible ruling in that it basically stated that if the counting continued it could jeopardize Bush winning the election. For all the harping the conservatives / Republicans do about not wanting Justices who legislate, rule from the bench this was about the most blatant, partisan Supreme Court ruling ever. A total disgrace.

Vinny
The date of the SCOTUS decision was December 12, 2000. They ruled 7–2 that the standards the Florida Supreme Court provided for a recount were unconstitutional due to violations of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, and further ruled 5–4 that no constitutionally valid recount could be completed by the December 12 deadline.

Gore conceded on December 13, 2000.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by doodle » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:54 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:28 am
vnatale wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:26 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Other recounts were done after the fact that showed Bush won so it all boils down to who you want to believe.

What's not accounted for is what happened in the Panhandle when the news called Bush the winner before the polls closed. No way to know how many people heard that and decided they didn't need to vote on their way home from work. The Panhandle is in a different time zone and heavily Republican.

Just saw something on FoxNews about a court ruling in PA saying that the sec. of state overstepped her authority by extending the voting deadline. This is the same kind of thing I remember from the 2000 FL fiasco and why the supreme court finally put a stop to it. Votes were supposed to be in by a certain deadline and when they weren't, the FL supreme court said that's okay and the U.S. supreme court said no. At least that's the way I remember it, though I may not have the exact details right.
I don't think your memory is correct on this. It was the recount in January that the Supreme Court stopped. It was the most logical, indefensible ruling in that it basically stated that if the counting continued it could jeopardize Bush winning the election. For all the harping the conservatives / Republicans do about not wanting Justices who legislate, rule from the bench this was about the most blatant, partisan Supreme Court ruling ever. A total disgrace.

Vinny
The date of the SCOTUS decision was December 12, 2000. They ruled 7–2 that the standards the Florida Supreme Court provided for a recount were unconstitutional due to violations of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, and further ruled 5–4 that no constitutionally valid recount could be completed by the December 12 deadline.

Gore conceded on December 13, 2000.
The infamous butterfly ballot. Design matters. A lot of weird votes for Pat Buchanan in democratic strongholds......oh and then the punch through design bringing about the issue of hanging Chad's..lol ..We really need to figure out a better way of doing. Its actually hard to believe we still do this using paper and pen
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by pp4me » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:46 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:29 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:09 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:07 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Other recounts were done after the fact that showed Bush won so it all boils down to who you want to believe.

What's not accounted for is what happened in the Panhandle when the news called Bush the winner before the polls closed. No way to know how many people heard that and decided they didn't need to vote on their way home from work. The Panhandle is in a different time zone and heavily Republican.

Just saw something on FoxNews about a court ruling in PA saying that the sec. of state overstepped her authority by extending the voting deadline. This is the same kind of thing I remember from the 2000 FL fiasco and why the supreme court finally put a stop to it. Votes were supposed to be in by a certain deadline and when they weren't, the FL supreme court said that's okay and the U.S. supreme court said no. At least that's the way I remember it, though I may not have the exact details right.
It wasn't a time issue...it was the butterfly ballot/hanging chad issue primarily....bad ballot design leaving voters intention oftentimes up for interpretation.
I don't think that is correct. The Supreme court wasn't looking at hanging chads. They were looking at the law. Bad ballot design was in the democrat counties down south as I recall it.

I'm pretty sure you can find the supreme court decision online if you want to read it and let us know what it really said. I haven't done that myself. Back then I actually had to go to work and make a living so I didn't have as much time as I do now.
You can either read the entire book. Or, I might suspect you might want to just read this review of the book:

THE BETRAYAL OF AMERICA: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President

https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-56025-355-6


Vinny
Gerald Posner and many others have also written books that come to conclusions different than Mr. Bugliosi's. I haven't read any of them and don't see much point in it.

I do recall something about the Equal Protection Clause in one of the decisions and I thought that had something to do with the way the Dems tried to focus only on the counties where they thought they could get more votes.

Although they still use paper ballots in Florida there are no chads any more. You mark the paper with an ink pen and then put it in a machine where it gets tabulated immediately. Seems like a pretty good system along with secure absentee balloting - not the mass mailing kind that seems like an invitation to fraud to me.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by doodle » Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:54 pm

pp4me wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:46 pm
vnatale wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:29 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:09 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:07 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Other recounts were done after the fact that showed Bush won so it all boils down to who you want to believe.

What's not accounted for is what happened in the Panhandle when the news called Bush the winner before the polls closed. No way to know how many people heard that and decided they didn't need to vote on their way home from work. The Panhandle is in a different time zone and heavily Republican.

Just saw something on FoxNews about a court ruling in PA saying that the sec. of state overstepped her authority by extending the voting deadline. This is the same kind of thing I remember from the 2000 FL fiasco and why the supreme court finally put a stop to it. Votes were supposed to be in by a certain deadline and when they weren't, the FL supreme court said that's okay and the U.S. supreme court said no. At least that's the way I remember it, though I may not have the exact details right.
It wasn't a time issue...it was the butterfly ballot/hanging chad issue primarily....bad ballot design leaving voters intention oftentimes up for interpretation.
I don't think that is correct. The Supreme court wasn't looking at hanging chads. They were looking at the law. Bad ballot design was in the democrat counties down south as I recall it.

I'm pretty sure you can find the supreme court decision online if you want to read it and let us know what it really said. I haven't done that myself. Back then I actually had to go to work and make a living so I didn't have as much time as I do now.
You can either read the entire book. Or, I might suspect you might want to just read this review of the book:

THE BETRAYAL OF AMERICA: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President

https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-56025-355-6


Vinny
Gerald Posner and many others have also written books that come to conclusions different than Mr. Bugliosi's. I haven't read any of them and don't see much point in it.

I do recall something about the Equal Protection Clause in one of the decisions and I thought that had something to do with the way the Dems tried to focus only on the counties where they thought they could get more votes.

Although they still use paper ballots in Florida there are no chads any more. You mark the paper with an ink pen and then put it in a machine where it gets tabulated immediately. Seems like a pretty good system along with secure absentee balloting - not the mass mailing kind that seems like an invitation to fraud to me.
Have you looked at how mail in ballots are secured from fraud? I haven't but I'd imagine there are security measures to guard against fraud.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by pp4me » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:30 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:54 pm
pp4me wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:46 pm
vnatale wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:29 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:09 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:07 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Other recounts were done after the fact that showed Bush won so it all boils down to who you want to believe.

What's not accounted for is what happened in the Panhandle when the news called Bush the winner before the polls closed. No way to know how many people heard that and decided they didn't need to vote on their way home from work. The Panhandle is in a different time zone and heavily Republican.

Just saw something on FoxNews about a court ruling in PA saying that the sec. of state overstepped her authority by extending the voting deadline. This is the same kind of thing I remember from the 2000 FL fiasco and why the supreme court finally put a stop to it. Votes were supposed to be in by a certain deadline and when they weren't, the FL supreme court said that's okay and the U.S. supreme court said no. At least that's the way I remember it, though I may not have the exact details right.
It wasn't a time issue...it was the butterfly ballot/hanging chad issue primarily....bad ballot design leaving voters intention oftentimes up for interpretation.
I don't think that is correct. The Supreme court wasn't looking at hanging chads. They were looking at the law. Bad ballot design was in the democrat counties down south as I recall it.

I'm pretty sure you can find the supreme court decision online if you want to read it and let us know what it really said. I haven't done that myself. Back then I actually had to go to work and make a living so I didn't have as much time as I do now.
You can either read the entire book. Or, I might suspect you might want to just read this review of the book:

THE BETRAYAL OF AMERICA: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President

https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-56025-355-6


Vinny
Gerald Posner and many others have also written books that come to conclusions different than Mr. Bugliosi's. I haven't read any of them and don't see much point in it.

I do recall something about the Equal Protection Clause in one of the decisions and I thought that had something to do with the way the Dems tried to focus only on the counties where they thought they could get more votes.

Although they still use paper ballots in Florida there are no chads any more. You mark the paper with an ink pen and then put it in a machine where it gets tabulated immediately. Seems like a pretty good system along with secure absentee balloting - not the mass mailing kind that seems like an invitation to fraud to me.
Have you looked at how mail in ballots are secured from fraud? I haven't but I'd imagine there are security measures to guard against fraud.
When you send out unsolicited ballots to everyone I don't see how you can guard against fraud despite the constant claims that there is "no evidence". The only security measure I've heard of is to compare signatures but I believe they even did away with that in PA. When you think about it, if you get a million mail-in ballots how is it even feasible that you could compare the signatures and where do you even get the signatures to compare them to? Is that done by humans or machine?

Then there is the issue of ballot harvesting which unsolicited mail-in voting can make much worse.

IMO unsolicited mail-in voting ballots are the "chads" of this election only they are much less reliable.

Also, IMO, if you can't take the trouble to request an absentee ballot using the proper procedures or go to the polls to vote in person then maybe you shouldn't be voting at all.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by pmward » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:55 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:54 pm

Have you looked at how mail in ballots are secured from fraud? I haven't but I'd imagine there are security measures to guard against fraud.
I looked here in AZ how they did it. It actually is pretty secure. They sent ballots to every registered voter this year. But each ballot had a serial number registered to a single person. If you were issued a second ballot, like if you had to request a second ballot be mailed out for whatever reason, or if you decided to vote in person instead, the moment you were issued a new ballot your old serial number was cancelled out. So technically you could have voted twice, but only your most recent vote would count, the old one would be thrown out. They also did signature verification on all mail in ballots to help ensure it was you that submitted it. This combination of serial number verification and signature verification for each and every vote were the reason why it took AZ so long to count our mail-in ballots (are we still even completely done???). Also on the state website you could track your ballot from the moment it was sent, arrived, when it was received by them, when it was signature verified, and when it was officially counted. I tracked mine all the way through the process, it was pretty cool. All in all, I don't feel there was any security issues in mail in ballots that are not present for in person ballots here.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:02 pm

pp4me wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:30 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:54 pm
pp4me wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:46 pm
vnatale wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:29 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:09 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:07 pm
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Other recounts were done after the fact that showed Bush won so it all boils down to who you want to believe.

What's not accounted for is what happened in the Panhandle when the news called Bush the winner before the polls closed. No way to know how many people heard that and decided they didn't need to vote on their way home from work. The Panhandle is in a different time zone and heavily Republican.

Just saw something on FoxNews about a court ruling in PA saying that the sec. of state overstepped her authority by extending the voting deadline. This is the same kind of thing I remember from the 2000 FL fiasco and why the supreme court finally put a stop to it. Votes were supposed to be in by a certain deadline and when they weren't, the FL supreme court said that's okay and the U.S. supreme court said no. At least that's the way I remember it, though I may not have the exact details right.
It wasn't a time issue...it was the butterfly ballot/hanging chad issue primarily....bad ballot design leaving voters intention oftentimes up for interpretation.
I don't think that is correct. The Supreme court wasn't looking at hanging chads. They were looking at the law. Bad ballot design was in the democrat counties down south as I recall it.

I'm pretty sure you can find the supreme court decision online if you want to read it and let us know what it really said. I haven't done that myself. Back then I actually had to go to work and make a living so I didn't have as much time as I do now.
You can either read the entire book. Or, I might suspect you might want to just read this review of the book:

THE BETRAYAL OF AMERICA: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President

https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-56025-355-6


Vinny
Gerald Posner and many others have also written books that come to conclusions different than Mr. Bugliosi's. I haven't read any of them and don't see much point in it.

I do recall something about the Equal Protection Clause in one of the decisions and I thought that had something to do with the way the Dems tried to focus only on the counties where they thought they could get more votes.

Although they still use paper ballots in Florida there are no chads any more. You mark the paper with an ink pen and then put it in a machine where it gets tabulated immediately. Seems like a pretty good system along with secure absentee balloting - not the mass mailing kind that seems like an invitation to fraud to me.
Have you looked at how mail in ballots are secured from fraud? I haven't but I'd imagine there are security measures to guard against fraud.
When you send out unsolicited ballots to everyone I don't see how you can guard against fraud despite the constant claims that there is "no evidence". The only security measure I've heard of is to compare signatures but I believe they even did away with that in PA. When you think about it, if you get a million mail-in ballots how is it even feasible that you could compare the signatures and where do you even get the signatures to compare them to? Is that done by humans or machine?

Then there is the issue of ballot harvesting which unsolicited mail-in voting can make much worse.

IMO unsolicited mail-in voting ballots are the "chads" of this election only they are much less reliable.

Also, IMO, if you can't take the trouble to request an absentee ballot using the proper procedures or go to the polls to vote in person then maybe you shouldn't be voting at all.
Not completely "unsolicited" and not to "everyone". ONLY to registered voters. People who have indicated that they want to vote.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by pmward » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:09 pm

Also in regards to the serial number, this also eliminated the possibility of ballot spoofing, as if they received a ballot with a serial number that didn't match the serial number they issued to that person it was rejected. Only the state knows the serial number of the ballots for each person, so there is no way to spoof a ballot and get it counted. So you have a ballot that is tied to an individual when it is issued through a serial number in their private database, you have signature verification which verifies it was the person, and you have tracking that all users can check to ensure their vote was counted and that nobody issued any unexpected ballots in their name. I really fail to see how this is any less secure than in person voting. And you better believe every Trump vote has checked their ballot sometime in the last week and a half to make sure it was counted fairly.

I also hate to say it once again, but if you want total security in voting... Blockchain...
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by boglerdude » Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:03 am

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Re: Florida 2000

Post by pmward » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:25 am

Consider the source...
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by pp4me » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:16 am

pmward wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:09 pm
I really fail to see how this is any less secure than in person voting.
In Florida you present your ID which they look up to see if you are registered to vote. Then you go into a booth with your ballot to make your selections. So you know that the person voting is indeed, the registered voter. Checking some serial number on a mailed-in ballot doesn't tell you that the person the ballot was actually sent to is the one who filled it out. Nor does it tell you if the person is dead or has moved.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by pmward » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:36 am

pp4me wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:16 am
pmward wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:09 pm
I really fail to see how this is any less secure than in person voting.
In Florida you present your ID which they look up to see if you are registered to vote. Then you go into a booth with your ballot to make your selections. So you know that the person voting is indeed, the registered voter. Checking some serial number on a mailed-in ballot doesn't tell you that the person the ballot was actually sent to is the one who filled it out. Nor does it tell you if the person is dead or has moved.
They would not send ballots to someone who is dead or moved. They use signature verification to ensure it was the person that voted. Also, in person, there is a such thing as a fake id. Who says showing an ID is secure? In person is not more secure, it's just more familiar. Familiarity generally speaking is the opposite of security. Where there is familiarity there is trust, where there is trust there is guard let down, where there is guard let down there is security vulnerability. Security is part of my job, so I have to think about these kinds of things every day.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by pmward » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:54 am

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:48 am
pmward wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:36 am
pp4me wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:16 am
pmward wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:09 pm
I really fail to see how this is any less secure than in person voting.
In Florida you present your ID which they look up to see if you are registered to vote. Then you go into a booth with your ballot to make your selections. So you know that the person voting is indeed, the registered voter. Checking some serial number on a mailed-in ballot doesn't tell you that the person the ballot was actually sent to is the one who filled it out. Nor does it tell you if the person is dead or has moved.
They would not send ballots to someone who is dead or moved. They use signature verification to ensure it was the person that voted. Also, in person, there is a such thing as a fake id. Who says showing an ID is secure? In person is not more secure, it's just more familiar. Familiarity generally speaking is the opposite of security. Where there is familiarity there is trust, where there is trust there is guard let down, where there is guard let down there is security vulnerability. Security is part of my job, so I have to think about these kinds of things every day.
What on earth would make you think that? The efficiency of government? If someone died in the last couple of months, would their records even be updated to reflect that? There have been hundreds of confirmed cases this election where people who would have been 120 years old and died 4 decades ago somehow managed to vote.

And in Chicago, the motto has been "Vote early and vote often" for ages.
What is there to stop someone who is dead or moved from voting in person? If someone wants to exploit this, they are going to do so, in person or by mail. There are security vulnerabilities of both. There's a reason I say we should use blockchain. But Republicans don't want blockchain because Republicans would never ever win an election again if it were fully virtual. Also, if there is fraud, do you really honestly believe it's only on one side? Do you truly believe Trump of all people, and the Republican Party are above this?
Last edited by pmward on Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by pmward » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:58 am

Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:56 am
It’s the blue voting gnomes. They are every where altering ballots that are thrown away by corrupt or lazy postal workers. This year that happened to over 750 million ballots. Curse the gnomes, they are a scourge on our democracy.

And have you noticed the blue stripe on the postal worker uniforms is exactly the same as the blue gnomes...deep state man, deep state for sure.
LMAO!!!!
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Re: Florida 2000

Post by pmward » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:09 am

I think we have to really ask ourselves why mail in voting is under attack by Trump? If mail in votes historically trended to Republicans, and if he won the mail in vote in 2016, do you think Trump would be complaining about mail in votes right now? No he would not. The ONLY reason he is complaining about it, is because he knew that it would encourage more liberals to vote and that he would lose the election because of this. Liberals as a percentage vote much less than conservatives traditionally. So essentially, Trump's strategy was to try to keep people from voting by mail, because the mail votes would skew more towards Biden. Anybody who actually thinks Trump cares about fairness or "legal votes" is brainwashed. You are being played. Your insecurities, fears, and anger are being manipulated and used like a chess piece in a political game for power. Court after court has dismissed the charges for lack of evidence. The department of homeland security has stated there is no evidence of fraud https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/vi ... 5891525694. It's time we honestly admit there is no evidence of fraud, and that this whole thing is a facade. I'm all for investigating if things are in question, but the investigations so far have proven Trumps claims are false. At what point do we listen to the evidence and investigations and dismiss the lies?
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