Election meaningless unless we change for the better

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Mountaineer
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:30 pm

pmward wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:08 pm
Here's the thing to kind of rope it back around to where this tangent started. These generalizations become engrained in our brains. They become a part of our mind's subconscious programming. So when we start to buy in to these generalizations, they flavor our actions, the things we say, who we associate with, who we are friendly with, who we avoid, who we shun, who we support, who we resist, etc. These things themselves turn into discriminating thoughts, which turn into discriminating actions. And the whole time we may not be aware that we are doing this. Like, I don't think pugchief was aware of what he said when he said it. Not to pick on you pugchief, because I've caught myself doing this. In watching my own mind, I catch myself doing this. I have to stop and pause and say "wait a minute, that's not true". This is how the human mind works, we are good at trying to find patterns, and sometimes they falsely project those patterns forward, and it can unintentionally harm others. If you go way back and read l82start's comment from this morning on page 19, he called these people the "cognitive dissidents". People that may say they don't support discrimination, and they may not believe they are perpetuating discrimination, but they really are. An example that a friend of mine told me that helped me get the "aha" moment. He told me about a time he was traveling and went to a local church in the area. He was the only non-white person there. He said that person after person came in and sat as far away from him as they could. He said when the service started basically the only seats open in the whole place were around him. Nobody stopped to say hi or shake his hand. He felt terrible, unwanted, rejected, less than, etc. He said he doesn't think it was intentional. These people didn't think "oh I'm not going to sit by HIM", their subconscious just automatically avoided him basically on auto-pilot. But it still hurt him, and lowered his own self value, even if just briefly. When this kind of behavior becomes a regularly occurring thing... it's easy to start really believing that you really are less than.
Interesting how different people react to situations. Had I been your friend in that church setting, I would have thought ’I am not going to let other people determine how I feel’. Then I would reflect that church is for sinners just like me. Then I would have approached a couple of people, introduced myself and said something positive about the sermon, trying to show them I was a fellow child of God. Regardless of how they might respond to my comments, I don’t let others control my feelings. I have always told my children that you can’t control other people’s behaviors, but you can control your own response (physical and emotional and intellectual) - the choice is yours.
I marvel at the creation - its beauty, its endurance, its complexity. I marvel that man can make complex things but is incapable of making even the simplest living organism - a blade of grass, a tree, an ant, an amoeba.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by pmward » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:50 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:30 pm
pmward wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:08 pm
Here's the thing to kind of rope it back around to where this tangent started. These generalizations become engrained in our brains. They become a part of our mind's subconscious programming. So when we start to buy in to these generalizations, they flavor our actions, the things we say, who we associate with, who we are friendly with, who we avoid, who we shun, who we support, who we resist, etc. These things themselves turn into discriminating thoughts, which turn into discriminating actions. And the whole time we may not be aware that we are doing this. Like, I don't think pugchief was aware of what he said when he said it. Not to pick on you pugchief, because I've caught myself doing this. In watching my own mind, I catch myself doing this. I have to stop and pause and say "wait a minute, that's not true". This is how the human mind works, we are good at trying to find patterns, and sometimes they falsely project those patterns forward, and it can unintentionally harm others. If you go way back and read l82start's comment from this morning on page 19, he called these people the "cognitive dissidents". People that may say they don't support discrimination, and they may not believe they are perpetuating discrimination, but they really are. An example that a friend of mine told me that helped me get the "aha" moment. He told me about a time he was traveling and went to a local church in the area. He was the only non-white person there. He said that person after person came in and sat as far away from him as they could. He said when the service started basically the only seats open in the whole place were around him. Nobody stopped to say hi or shake his hand. He felt terrible, unwanted, rejected, less than, etc. He said he doesn't think it was intentional. These people didn't think "oh I'm not going to sit by HIM", their subconscious just automatically avoided him basically on auto-pilot. But it still hurt him, and lowered his own self value, even if just briefly. When this kind of behavior becomes a regularly occurring thing... it's easy to start really believing that you really are less than.
Interesting how different people react to situations. Had I been your friend in that church setting, I would have thought ’I am not going to let other people determine how I feel’. Then I would reflect that church is for sinners just like me. Then I would have approached a couple of people, introduced myself and said something positive about the sermon, trying to show them I was a fellow child of God. Regardless of how they might respond to my comments, I don’t let others control my feelings. I have always told my children that you can’t control other people’s behaviors, but you can control your own response (physical and emotional and intellectual) - the choice is yours.
You must keep in mind this is not an isolated incident. This is but one example of day to day life for some. If society told you this story over and over again from the time you were young that you were less than... well anybody would be effected by this story. It can create deep seeded traumas that can be difficult to overcome. You cannot truly say how you would react in his shoes... because you have not ever worn his shoes for a single day... much less for 40 years. If you had, and especially if you went through childhood having society transmit this story onto you, I have a feeling you would look at the world much differently today. These things are in the realm of programmed subconscious conditioning, your programming in life has been completely different than his. So you cannot just dismiss his experience for how you would feel in his shoes, because you really have no idea. So this is the thing, since you can never truly understand, you can never truly dismiss someone else's traumas. Not saying there is no choice in here, but in the realm of psychology... the choices can become limited by these false beliefs you've picked up along the way.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:18 pm

pmward wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:50 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:30 pm
pmward wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:08 pm
Here's the thing to kind of rope it back around to where this tangent started. These generalizations become engrained in our brains. They become a part of our mind's subconscious programming. So when we start to buy in to these generalizations, they flavor our actions, the things we say, who we associate with, who we are friendly with, who we avoid, who we shun, who we support, who we resist, etc. These things themselves turn into discriminating thoughts, which turn into discriminating actions. And the whole time we may not be aware that we are doing this. Like, I don't think pugchief was aware of what he said when he said it. Not to pick on you pugchief, because I've caught myself doing this. In watching my own mind, I catch myself doing this. I have to stop and pause and say "wait a minute, that's not true". This is how the human mind works, we are good at trying to find patterns, and sometimes they falsely project those patterns forward, and it can unintentionally harm others. If you go way back and read l82start's comment from this morning on page 19, he called these people the "cognitive dissidents". People that may say they don't support discrimination, and they may not believe they are perpetuating discrimination, but they really are. An example that a friend of mine told me that helped me get the "aha" moment. He told me about a time he was traveling and went to a local church in the area. He was the only non-white person there. He said that person after person came in and sat as far away from him as they could. He said when the service started basically the only seats open in the whole place were around him. Nobody stopped to say hi or shake his hand. He felt terrible, unwanted, rejected, less than, etc. He said he doesn't think it was intentional. These people didn't think "oh I'm not going to sit by HIM", their subconscious just automatically avoided him basically on auto-pilot. But it still hurt him, and lowered his own self value, even if just briefly. When this kind of behavior becomes a regularly occurring thing... it's easy to start really believing that you really are less than.
Interesting how different people react to situations. Had I been your friend in that church setting, I would have thought ’I am not going to let other people determine how I feel’. Then I would reflect that church is for sinners just like me. Then I would have approached a couple of people, introduced myself and said something positive about the sermon, trying to show them I was a fellow child of God. Regardless of how they might respond to my comments, I don’t let others control my feelings. I have always told my children that you can’t control other people’s behaviors, but you can control your own response (physical and emotional and intellectual) - the choice is yours.
You must keep in mind this is not an isolated incident. This is but one example of day to day life for some. If society told you this story over and over again from the time you were young that you were less than... well anybody would be effected by this story. It can create deep seeded traumas that can be difficult to overcome. You cannot truly say how you would react in his shoes... because you have not ever worn his shoes for a single day... much less for 40 years. If you had, and especially if you went through childhood having society transmit this story onto you, I have a feeling you would look at the world much differently today. These things are in the realm of programmed subconscious conditioning, your programming in life has been completely different than his. So you cannot just dismiss his experience for how you would feel in his shoes, because you really have no idea. So this is the thing, since you can never truly understand, you can never truly dismiss someone else's traumas. Not saying there is no choice in here, but in the realm of psychology... the choices can become limited by these false beliefs you've picked up along the way.
How exactly is it you know I’m not a non-white who grew up on the poor side of town who maybe didn’t even have shoes to wear for much longer than 40 years? And after pondering that question, why do you think I am engaging in this conversation? O0
I marvel at the creation - its beauty, its endurance, its complexity. I marvel that man can make complex things but is incapable of making even the simplest living organism - a blade of grass, a tree, an ant, an amoeba.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm

One of the last bastions for us racist, sexist, classist bigots is the dating scene.

My sister (who is as lefty/progressive as they come) will only date rich, tall Danish men. No one ever tells her that she is an awful person for not giving impoverished Asian lesbian midgets a shot. Why is she painting impoverished Asian lesbian midgets with a broad brush? Doesn't seem fair.

I only date women who are shorter and lighter than I am and that walk up hills and can solve the Sunday Times Crossword puzzle. Crazy religions are okay - but you have to be okay with killing animals for food.

Nobody ever told me, "Mark, you asshole, why don't you date crackheads? Do you think they are beneath you?"

When it comes to something as basic as procreation and the continuation of the species, we give a pass to everyone on who they want to live with, have sex with and have kids with.

I'm a simple man. I believe the same animal instincts that drive our mating preferences also influence who we want to hang around with in our neighborhood.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by tomfoolery » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:00 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:55 pm
One of the last bastions for us racist, sexist, classist bigots is the dating scene.

My sister (who is as lefty/progressive as they come) will only date rich, tall Danish men. No one ever tells her that she is an awful person for not giving impoverished Asian lesbian midgets a shot. Why is she painting impoverished Asian lesbian midgets with a broad brush? Doesn't seem fair.

I only date women who are shorter and lighter than I am and that walk up hills and can solve the Sunday Times Crossword puzzle. Crazy religions are okay - but you have to be okay with killing animals for food.

Nobody ever told me, "Mark, you asshole, why don't you date crackheads? Do you think they are beneath you?"

When it comes to something as basic as procreation and the continuation of the species, we give a pass to everyone on who they want to live with, have sex with and have kids with.

I'm a simple man. I believe the same animal instincts that drive our mating preferences also influence who we want to hang around with in our neighborhood.
Slippery slope towards genocide.

The only solution is for you to find the nearest trans-woman and date them. If you don’t, you support genocide.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:29 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:00 pm
...
If you don’t, you support genocide.
There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures. And the Dutch.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:53 am

pmward wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:54 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:40 pm
As I understand it (Tortoise and l82start have already mentioned it as well), the founders were talking about the government securing those rights as in, preventing people/our government/other governments from infringing on them. So to simplify, your right to life means that the government can't kill you, right to liberty means they can't imprison you, and right to happiness means they can't fuck with you doing things you enjoy. But it can do all of those things if you violate the society; the founders were ok with the government killing, imprisoning, and fucking with the life-enjoyment of criminals. They weren't saying that the government's duty was to keep you alive, or help you take advantage of every freedom you could, or make sure you were doing things that made you happy and fulfilled.
No that is not a correct translation. The founders spent a great deal of time debating the very root of my argument, which is tyranny of the majority. The concept of tyranny of the majority was well known in their time, and it was something they fought over quite a bit. Parts of our government structure and the constitution were setup specifically to try to combat this. They were not only trying to combat governmental tyranny, they were trying to combat ALL tyranny. It doesn't matter if it comes from a group of people or a government; tyranny is tyranny; oppression is oppression. To only look at what they wrote in the context of government is too limited, and was not their original intention.
I think we both said the same thing with different words, so I'm not sure which part you think was not correct. Either way, you didn't explain why you think the government's role was the latter part of what I wrote.
Tyranny of the majority itself is a tricky beast. . . For instance, even if the government does not instill a mask mandate, if society as a whole deems it unacceptable to not wear a mask and shuns everyone who does not wear a mask, that is a tyranny of the majority that has nothing to do with the government. That in itself is a form of power that has nothing to do with the government. So just like I can argue the left side that oppression of minorities is tyranny, I can also argue the right side, that societal pressures, cancel culture, etc are also a form of tyranny. Neither of which have anything to do with government, thus neither would go away if the government went away.
Yes, I agree. That's what I was saying about masks a long time ago. In Japan, everyone thinks you're a jackass if you don't wear a mask when you're sick, but there's no law saying you HAVE to. In the US, if you're sick it's expected that you stay home and recover instead of going around infecting people, but we're uncomfortable with governments forcing us to. Cancel culture is also largely outside the law as well.
I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. Who knows whether that person will be wise or foolish? Yet they will have control over all the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. . . Nothing is better for a man than to eat and drink and enjoy his work.
- Ecclesiastes
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by Kbg » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:03 am

I had an epiphany while on business in Asia the past six weeks regarding wearing masks which I think is pretty accurate...comes down to “well, hey, this COVID thing is all about me, myself and I.” The justification/rationalizations are different but really that’s the bottom line.

Pretty funny what you get used to...wearing a mask all day with breaks for eating is no bigs at all.

It’s been kinda nice to not have to worry about getting Covid.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by sophie » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:21 am

pmward wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:54 pm
sophie wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:29 pm
So what exactly was the problem here? Are you saying that there is a genetic predisposition of certain races to lead irresponsible and unproductive lives, so that they must be rescued by the state? That sounds racist to me. And might one have the sneaking suspicion that government actually CAUSED this problem?
As far as I can see, you're the only person in this entire thread that has attributed "irresponsible and unproductive lives" to a persons skin color.
I'm sorry, I must have missed the chapter in my high school American history class that mentioned a race other than blacks who were enslaved in the the U.S. Could you please enlighten me?

I take it, by the way, that you can't refute a single thing I said in my post. Glad to know that even though you might not want to admit it, you agree with me that the current sorry economic and social state of a large proportion of blacks in the US cannot be attributed to the legacy of slavery.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by sophie » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:36 am

pmward wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:57 pm
Okay: I'd rather not live in that low-class neighborhood, because many of the people who live there exhibit low-class behaviors.

Not okay: I currently live in a nice neighborhood and dislike the fact that someone who appears to be low-class just moved into this neighborhood, because although I haven't seen them exhibit low-class behavior yet, I'm assuming they're likely to.
That sounds like a theoretical, armchair argument that fits in well with politically correct cancel culture, but in real life is absolutely ludicrous.

Pmward, you will convince me when you decide to pick up and move into Bedford-Stuyvesant or equivalent neighborhood, taking your entire family with you. And put your kids into the local public schools. Do that and then come back and tell us what it's like not to be an evil classist.

My cousin did something like this during his youthful, idealist days. He was temporarily living in Philadelphia and working at a bank. He decided to live in South Philly to prove he wasn't a classist. His apartment was broken into about once a month and he was mugged approximately as often. He pretended this was all just fine with him for maybe a year, then suddenly couldn't take it anymore, picked up and moved out of the city. He is now married with kids, and lives in a very nice suburban area with excellent schools. No muggings or breakins. I guess he's "evil" now for preferring his current neighborhood to his former one in Philly?

You are asking people to go against their desire to do the best they can for themselves and their loved ones. If we didn't have this basic instinct, it's unlikely we would even exist as a species today. You personally are free to move into whatever trash-strewn, high crime, crappy-school neighborhood you choose to, but you have no right to claim moral superiority over the vast majority of people who don't want to do that.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by glennds » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:48 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:29 pm
tomfoolery wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:00 pm
...
If you don’t, you support genocide.
There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures. And the Dutch.

What about Illinois Nazis?
I hate Illinois Nazis.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by pmward » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:44 am

sophie wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:36 am
pmward wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:57 pm
Okay: I'd rather not live in that low-class neighborhood, because many of the people who live there exhibit low-class behaviors.

Not okay: I currently live in a nice neighborhood and dislike the fact that someone who appears to be low-class just moved into this neighborhood, because although I haven't seen them exhibit low-class behavior yet, I'm assuming they're likely to.
That sounds like a theoretical, armchair argument that fits in well with politically correct cancel culture, but in real life is absolutely ludicrous.

Pmward, you will convince me when you decide to pick up and move into Bedford-Stuyvesant or equivalent neighborhood, taking your entire family with you. And put your kids into the local public schools. Do that and then come back and tell us what it's like not to be an evil classist.

My cousin did something like this during his youthful, idealist days. He was temporarily living in Philadelphia and working at a bank. He decided to live in South Philly to prove he wasn't a classist. His apartment was broken into about once a month and he was mugged approximately as often. He pretended this was all just fine with him for maybe a year, then suddenly couldn't take it anymore, picked up and moved out of the city. He is now married with kids, and lives in a very nice suburban area with excellent schools. No muggings or breakins. I guess he's "evil" now for preferring his current neighborhood to his former one in Philly?

You are asking people to go against their desire to do the best they can for themselves and their loved ones. If we didn't have this basic instinct, it's unlikely we would even exist as a species today. You personally are free to move into whatever trash-strewn, high crime, crappy-school neighborhood you choose to, but you have no right to claim moral superiority over the vast majority of people who don't want to do that.
You clearly did not understand a single thing I said. Please place your biases aside and go back and re-read everything I wrote. Because the argument you're making here does not go against anything I have said. Your arguments are all very short sighted and you're making a lot of assumptions and putting a lot of words in my mouth I did not say.
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