Election meaningless unless we change for the better

[doodle]

Except that you're saying that a large swath of the US population is guilty of "extreme" behavior, because we want to live in nice upscale neighborhoods?

My point is not so much to take pmward's arguments apart (which is like shooting fish in a barrel and not particularly interesting) but to show just how extreme the "standard" left-wing propaganda is. The left profits when it can identify groups of people as victims who should blame their plight on someone else, because they can then much more easily get their political support (i.e. votes).

Mountaineer you're right on. The victim vs. oppressor narrative is what this is all about.

Both parties are hanging out on the fringes where nothing makes sense. The right needs to stop ignoring the fact that we systematically held down an entire race of people in this country for hundreds of years and continue to do so (although in far less obvious ways than 50 or 60 years ago) and the left needs to stop attributing every failure to these systemic injustices...the individual still has a role to play and personal responsibility does matter.

My Jamaican coworker I spoke about in another thread has by and large been able to lead a good life because he works hard and keeps his life clean. However, one cannot dismiss the impact that it has on a person when you get criminalized and pulled over constantly because you happen to be walking through a neighborhood a night and have the wrong skin color. That event alone breeds contempt and hatred for a society that treats you in that way and it breeds the type of antisocial behavior people here call "low class". If you treat people like another class, then they are likely to start acting out like one.

[doodle]

Oh, and it isn't going to change overnight. You don't adopt an abused animal from the pound and expect it to not have trauma from years of abuse. It's the same with humans. Epigenetics is real...these traumas are passed down through generations.

[pmward]

Except that you're saying that a large swath of the US population is guilty of "extreme" behavior, because we want to live in nice upscale neighborhoods?

No you did not read everything I said. I have specifically said in my own words that wanting to live in a nice upscale neighborhood is totally fine. You clearly did not read what I have already written, and this proves it. You also seem to have no interest in meeting me in the middle to discuss these issues, like most people in this thread have. I think we actually had some good constructive discussion here this week. I'm frustrated, because to me it feels like you have come into the discussion with your mind already made up, and an unwillingness to listen to anything else other than your pre-existing biases, and an unwillingness to actually have any real constructive discussion. Unless you're willing to place your biases to the side and actually have a discussion, I'm not sure there is any value in continuing the conversation.

I also think I've already said everything I have to say on the subject. I think the discussion at this point has mostly run it's course. If you or any one else need clarity anywhere, feel free to ask questions. But I don't want this to devolve into me just doing the broken record thing repeating the same things over and over. The argument and logic behind it are all laid out, it's on you whether or not you're willing to actually read it, set your biases aside for a moment, and try to actually understand where I was coming from.

[Tortoise]

I suspect there’s a minor disconnect here in that pmward said “classism is evil”, but he’s operating under a slightly different definition of classism than Sophie is.

If I understand pmward correctly, he doesn’t consider it classist to prefer to live in a nice, upscale neighborhood. He thinks it’s classist to assume an individual person is probably low-class (e.g., based on their skin color) before that person actually exhibits low-class behaviors.

The former does not involve a judgment about a particular person, whereas the latter does.

[Mountaineer]

So what do you all think about the Rudy G. Et al news conference today about election fraud? Only saw a couple of minutes of it after a friend called me. Seems like a really big deal.

[pmward]

Exactly. Any "ism" can only happen when somebody judges an individual person to be equal to some stereotype, usually a stereotype someone views as lower than themselves, but it can go the other way as well. You can for instance show preferential treatment to someone who looks rich. This makes their life easier by being treated better than others for no other reason than the fact that you made assumptions of them according to their stereotype. They could be bankrupt, with everything they own being all on debt... but you treated them differently based on their appearance instead of their actual character as an individual person. A criminal is always a bad thing. Not all poor people are criminals. So, to judge a poor person as a criminal, when you don't know if they actually are a criminal, is harmful, and it is a chronic issue. It is a legitimate gripe that some groups in this country have. Some people are treated better based on stereotype, and others are treated worse based on stereotype. Did you win the lottery by being born in the proper group or not? This birth lottery makes a big difference in quality of life, and that's not really fair. It's not "equality".

[Kriegsspiel]

I suspect there’s a minor disconnect here in that pmward said “classism is evil”, but he’s operating under a slightly different definition of classism than Sophie is.

If I understand pmward correctly, he doesn’t consider it classist to prefer to live in a nice, upscale neighborhood. He thinks it’s classist to assume an individual person is probably low-class (e.g., based on their skin color) before that person actually exhibits low-class behaviors.

The former does not involve a judgment about a particular person, whereas the latter does.

Where I'm from, you wouldn't use "low-class" to mean someone's ethnicity, so maybe that's why trying to follow this was so fucking bewildering. We use low-class to talk about people who, say, leave their kids toys out in the front yard, or let their kids misbehave in front of other people; some people use "trashy" to mean the same thing. Its opposite would be "classy" which every American uses the same way AFAIK.

My brother lives in a very nice, expensive neighborhood, and some low-class people moved in nearby and his street is apparently very concerned.

[pmward]

I suspect there’s a minor disconnect here in that pmward said “classism is evil”, but he’s operating under a slightly different definition of classism than Sophie is.

If I understand pmward correctly, he doesn’t consider it classist to prefer to live in a nice, upscale neighborhood. He thinks it’s classist to assume an individual person is probably low-class (e.g., based on their skin color) before that person actually exhibits low-class behaviors.

The former does not involve a judgment about a particular person, whereas the latter does.

Where I'm from, you wouldn't use "low-class" to mean someone's ethnicity, so maybe that's why trying to follow this was so fucking bewildering. We use low-class to talk about people who, say, leave their kids toys out in the front yard, or let their kids misbehave in front of other people; some people use "trashy" to mean the same thing. Its opposite would be "classy" which every American uses the same way AFAIK.

My brother lives in a very nice, expensive neighborhood, and some low-class people moved in nearby and his street is apparently very concerned.

Thought experiment: So if somebody leaves their kids toys out front, or if their kids misbehave in public... Does that mean they are poor? Does that mean they are criminals? Does that mean they are in a gang? Does that mean they are less valuable than someone who's kids pick up after themselves and behave in public?

Flip side: if someone's kids pick up after themselves and behave... does that mean those people have to be either "middle class" or "upper class"? Does that mean they are not criminals? Does that mean they are more valuable than someone who's kids don't pick up after themselves and don't behave in public?

We can judge an individual for having a messy yard, we can judge someone for having misbehaving kids, but we cannot assume that because of these things that all the other traits that fit the "low class" stereotype fit them. Moreover, we cannot look at someone that we think looks "low class" without any proof or knowledge of them as a person, and assume that all the above traits fit them.

[Kriegsspiel]

"Low class" means poor, just like "upper class" means rich and "middle class" means average income. So if somebody leaves their kids toys out front, or if their kids misbehave in public... Does that mean they are poor? Does that mean they are criminals? Does that mean they are in a gang? Does that mean they are less valuable than someone who's kids pick up after themselves and behave in public?

Flip side: if someone's kids pick up after themselves and behave... does that mean those people have to be either "middle class" or "upper class"? Does that mean they are not criminals? Does that mean they are more valuable than someone who's kids don't pick up after themselves and don't behave in public?

We can judge an individual for having a messy yard, we can judge someone for having misbehaving kids, but we cannot assume that because of these things that all the other traits that fit the "low class" stereotype fit them. Moreover, we cannot look at someone that we think looks "low class" without any proof or knowledge of them as a person, and assume that all the above traits fit them.

[doodle]

So what do you all think about the Rudy G. Et al news conference today about election fraud? Only saw a couple of minutes of it after a friend called me. Seems like a really big deal.

Lol! The rambling incoherent monologue of an insane man. Only to be outdone by his last press conference from the parking lot of the four seasons landscaping company across from the dildo mart.

Face the facts, M. Your man lost to the worst candidate in our countrys history.

[Mountaineer]

So what do you all think about the Rudy G. Et al news conference today about election fraud? Only saw a couple of minutes of it after a friend called me. Seems like a really big deal.

Lol! The rambling incoherent monologue of an insane man. Only to be outdone by his last press conference from the parking lot of the four seasons landscaping company across from the dildo mart.

Face the facts, M. Your man lost to the worst candidate in our countrys history.

Well doodle, in spite of your aspersions, for the sake of my friends and our country, our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, and whatever offspring they may produce, I sure hope you are correct. And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition. I do agree with you that former VP Biden is the probably the worst (I'll define that for you: most corrupt, lying, unprincipled, no backbone of his own) presidential candidate in our country's history; I truly feel sorry for the man on how he is being used by many people the party he represents.

God's blessings and have a marvelous day.

[vnatale]

So what do you all think about the Rudy G. Et al news conference today about election fraud? Only saw a couple of minutes of it after a friend called me. Seems like a really big deal.

Lol! The rambling incoherent monologue of an insane man. Only to be outdone by his last press conference from the parking lot of the four seasons landscaping company across from the dildo mart.

Face the facts, M. Your man lost to the worst candidate in our countrys history.

Well doodle, in spite of your aspersions, for the sake of my friends and our country, our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, and whatever offspring they may produce, I sure hope you are correct. And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition. I do agree with you that former VP Biden is the probably the worst (I'll define that for you: most corrupt, lying, unprincipled, no backbone of his own) presidential candidate in our country's history; I truly feel sorry for the man on how he is being used by many people the party he represents.

God's blessings and have a marvelous day.

You are preaching ends justify means.

In what other areas in your life do you ever put your faith in anyone who is a documented liar and, therefore, completely untrustworthy?

From what I've gathered from you in this forum I strongly suspect that your answer would be...."No one else. There is always too much at stake to ever put trust in such a person."

Vinny

[Mountaineer]

So what do you all think about the Rudy G. Et al news conference today about election fraud? Only saw a couple of minutes of it after a friend called me. Seems like a really big deal.

Lol! The rambling incoherent monologue of an insane man. Only to be outdone by his last press conference from the parking lot of the four seasons landscaping company across from the dildo mart.

Face the facts, M. Your man lost to the worst candidate in our countrys history.

Well doodle, in spite of your aspersions, for the sake of my friends and our country, our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, and whatever offspring they may produce, I sure hope you are correct. And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition. I do agree with you that former VP Biden is the probably the worst (I'll define that for you: most corrupt, lying, unprincipled, no backbone of his own) presidential candidate in our country's history; I truly feel sorry for the man on how he is being used by many people the party he represents.

God's blessings and have a marvelous day.

You are preaching ends justify means.

In what other areas in your life do you ever put your faith in anyone who is a documented liar and, therefore, completely untrustworthy?

From what I've gathered from you in this forum I strongly suspect that your answer would be...."No one else. There is always too much at stake to ever put trust in such a person."

Vinny

Please explain. I don’t understand how you get this ends vs means from me, or that I put my faith in any politicians. Thanks.

[InsuranceGuy]

[deleted]

[vnatale]

So what do you all think about the Rudy G. Et al news conference today about election fraud? Only saw a couple of minutes of it after a friend called me. Seems like a really big deal.

Lol! The rambling incoherent monologue of an insane man. Only to be outdone by his last press conference from the parking lot of the four seasons landscaping company across from the dildo mart.

Face the facts, M. Your man lost to the worst candidate in our countrys history.

Well doodle, in spite of your aspersions, for the sake of my friends and our country, our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, and whatever offspring they may produce, I sure hope you are correct. And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition. I do agree with you that former VP Biden is the probably the worst (I'll define that for you: most corrupt, lying, unprincipled, no backbone of his own) presidential candidate in our country's history; I truly feel sorry for the man on how he is being used by many people the party he represents.

God's blessings and have a marvelous day.

You are preaching ends justify means.

In what other areas in your life do you ever put your faith in anyone who is a documented liar and, therefore, completely untrustworthy?

From what I've gathered from you in this forum I strongly suspect that your answer would be...."No one else. There is always too much at stake to ever put trust in such a person."

Vinny

Please explain. I don’t understand how you get this ends vs means from me, or that I put my faith in any politicians. Thanks.

Quoting your from above: "And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition."

How else can that be interpreted that other than "the ends justify the means" and you support someone who is documented liar and whom you'd otherwise never trust?

No secret I have major problems with Trump, not the least that he seems to possess even one positive character trait we tend to prize in our leaders, coworkers, friends, family members.

I also have my problems with Biden, which is why I also did not vote for him. When severe problems develop with him and his administration I don't want to feel complicit.

Vinny

[vnatale]

In what other areas in your life do you ever put your faith in anyone who is a documented liar and, therefore, completely untrustworthy?

From what I've gathered from you in this forum I strongly suspect that your answer would be...."No one else. There is always too much at stake to ever put trust in such a person."

Vinny

Wait, are you talking about Biden or Trump? They are both documented liars and frankly anyone who things otherwise is drinking too much of the Kool-aid.

Look back to another response I just made elsewhere.

Analogizing it to baseball players...in regards to telling lies.....Biden is ether a bench warmer or a fringe regular. Trump is sui generis. A First Ballot Hall of Famer. THE Babe Ruth of presidents AND all our country's politicians ever!

Vinny

[Mountaineer]

So what do you all think about the Rudy G. Et al news conference today about election fraud? Only saw a couple of minutes of it after a friend called me. Seems like a really big deal.

Lol! The rambling incoherent monologue of an insane man. Only to be outdone by his last press conference from the parking lot of the four seasons landscaping company across from the dildo mart.

Face the facts, M. Your man lost to the worst candidate in our countrys history.

Well doodle, in spite of your aspersions, for the sake of my friends and our country, our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, and whatever offspring they may produce, I sure hope you are correct. And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition. I do agree with you that former VP Biden is the probably the worst (I'll define that for you: most corrupt, lying, unprincipled, no backbone of his own) presidential candidate in our country's history; I truly feel sorry for the man on how he is being used by many people the party he represents.

God's blessings and have a marvelous day.

You are preaching ends justify means.

In what other areas in your life do you ever put your faith in anyone who is a documented liar and, therefore, completely untrustworthy?

From what I've gathered from you in this forum I strongly suspect that your answer would be...."No one else. There is always too much at stake to ever put trust in such a person."

Vinny

Please explain. I don’t understand how you get this ends vs means from me, or that I put my faith in any politicians. Thanks.

Quoting your from above: "And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition."

How else can that be interpreted that other than "the ends justify the means" and you support someone who is documented liar and whom you'd otherwise never trust?

No secret I have major problems with Trump, not the least that he seems to possess even one positive character trait we tend to prize in our leaders, coworkers, friends, family members.

I also have my problems with Biden, which is why I also did not vote for him. When severe problems develop with him and his administration I don't want to feel complicit.

Vinny

Vinny, your answer to my question may answer it in your mind, but not in mine. I may have previously not been clear as to my thoughts, forgive me, and let me try again to explain my views:

1. President Trump is not my man, nor is former VP Biden. I think they both have serious character flaws (as do all of us) from what I hear them say and do; I do not know them personally so I guess you could say I'm basing my opinion on hearsay. I am not into moralism as a religion (or as some might say 'moralistic therapeutic deism') and I think that Christ-like behavior as defined in Scripture is a virtue even though no human lives up to that example.

2. No politician is 'my man'. I think they mostly all are self-serving and will do whatever they think will further their careers, or best line their pockets. I do think some are better than others.

3. I do not put my faith in man; I'm actually quite surprised you would gather that from all of my previous posting. Psalm 146:3 (ESV) Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

4. I think the policies of the current Republican administration (flawed as they are since they are put forth by self-serving politicians and bureaucrats) are better for US citizens than the policies of the Democrats, particularly concerning the First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments. Life is not black and white, it is a huge spectrum from darkness to light. I think the R's policies bring and will keep the US closer to light than the D's in spite of all the things I do not like about the R's policies.

5. I think God puts our civil rulers in place for reasons we may not understand; I believe God rules over the civil realm as well as the spiritual realm. I think we should follow those rulers unless they conflict with clear Biblical teaching; in case of conflict we should, follow God, resist the civil rulers, and be ready to bear the consequences. In regard for how I'm told to live my life by our rulers, I think President Trump conflicts with Biblical teaching less than what I perceive former VP Biden does and would do, especially when it comes to matters of life, death, and freedom for the people who live in the United States.

6. I do not think ends justify the means (if you intend to say you think that I said favorable ends should and should be allowed to be pursued by unethical means - e.g. torture to obtain a confession). I think ends and means are both important. I think I am justified (made righteous) because of what Christ did on the cross - that is the only justification that is truly important.

Thus, I still fail to understand why you perceive I endorse "ends justify the means" re. President Trump and his policies, and secondly, why you perceive I put my faith somewhere other than in the Triune God.

Blessings and have a great day!

[vnatale]

So what do you all think about the Rudy G. Et al news conference today about election fraud? Only saw a couple of minutes of it after a friend called me. Seems like a really big deal.

Lol! The rambling incoherent monologue of an insane man. Only to be outdone by his last press conference from the parking lot of the four seasons landscaping company across from the dildo mart.

Face the facts, M. Your man lost to the worst candidate in our countrys history.

Well doodle, in spite of your aspersions, for the sake of my friends and our country, our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, and whatever offspring they may produce, I sure hope you are correct. And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition. I do agree with you that former VP Biden is the probably the worst (I'll define that for you: most corrupt, lying, unprincipled, no backbone of his own) presidential candidate in our country's history; I truly feel sorry for the man on how he is being used by many people the party he represents.

God's blessings and have a marvelous day.

You are preaching ends justify means.

In what other areas in your life do you ever put your faith in anyone who is a documented liar and, therefore, completely untrustworthy?

From what I've gathered from you in this forum I strongly suspect that your answer would be...."No one else. There is always too much at stake to ever put trust in such a person."

Vinny

Please explain. I don’t understand how you get this ends vs means from me, or that I put my faith in any politicians. Thanks.

Quoting your from above: "And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition."

How else can that be interpreted that other than "the ends justify the means" and you support someone who is documented liar and whom you'd otherwise never trust?

No secret I have major problems with Trump, not the least that he seems to possess even one positive character trait we tend to prize in our leaders, coworkers, friends, family members.

I also have my problems with Biden, which is why I also did not vote for him. When severe problems develop with him and his administration I don't want to feel complicit.

Vinny

Vinny, your answer to my question may answer it in your mind, but not in mine. I may have previously not been clear as to my thoughts, forgive me, and let me try again to explain my views:

1. President Trump is not my man, nor is former VP Biden. I think they both have serious character flaws (as do all of us) from what I hear them say and do; I do not know them personally so I guess you could say I'm basing my opinion on hearsay. I am not into moralism as a religion (or as some might say 'moralistic therapeutic deism') and I think that Christ-like behavior as defined in Scripture is a virtue even though no human lives up to that example.

2. No politician is 'my man'. I think they mostly all are self-serving and will do whatever they think will further their careers, or best line their pockets. I do think some are better than others.

3. I do not put my faith in man; I'm actually quite surprised you would gather that from all of my previous posting. Psalm 146:3 (ESV) Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

4. I think the policies of the current Republican administration (flawed as they are since they are put forth by self-serving politicians and bureaucrats) are better for US citizens than the policies of the Democrats, particularly concerning the First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments. Life is not black and white, it is a huge spectrum from darkness to light. I think the R's policies bring and will keep the US closer to light than the D's in spite of all the things I do not like about the R's policies.

5. I think God puts our civil rulers in place for reasons we may not understand; I believe God rules over the civil realm as well as the spiritual realm. I think we should follow those rulers unless they conflict with clear Biblical teaching; in case of conflict we should, follow God, resist the civil rulers, and be ready to bear the consequences. In regard for how I'm told to live my life by our rulers, I think President Trump conflicts with Biblical teaching less than what I perceive former VP Biden does and would do, especially when it comes to matters of life, death, and freedom for the people who live in the United States.

6. I do not think ends justify the means (if you intend to say you think that I said favorable ends should and should be allowed to be pursued by unethical means - e.g. torture to obtain a confession). I think ends and means are both important. I think I am justified (made righteous) because of what Christ did on the cross - that is the only justification that is truly important.

Thus, I still fail to understand why you perceive I endorse "ends justify the means" re. President Trump and his policies, and secondly, why you perceive I put my faith somewhere other than in the Triune God.

Blessings and have a great day!

Thanks you for taking the time to write all that you have. It clarifies much.

There are two parts to it. Your beliefs and how you apply your beliefs.

It is somewhat familiar to reading the Bible. There are the actual words and then there are both the interpretation of those words and the application of those interpretations.

My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny

[doodle]

5. I think God puts our civil rulers in place for reasons we may not understand; I believe God rules over the civil realm as well as the spiritual realm. I think we should follow those rulers unless they conflict with clear Biblical teaching; in case of conflict we should, follow God, resist the civil rulers, and be ready to bear the consequences. In regard for how I'm told to live my life by our rulers, I think President Trump conflicts with Biblical teaching less than what I perceive former VP Biden does and would do, especially when it comes to matters of life, death, and freedom for the people who live in the United States.

You're in the wrong country man. We fought a revolution to overthrow our shitty civil rulers...then we wrote a constitution that doesn't mention God at all.

[Mountaineer]

So what do you all think about the Rudy G. Et al news conference today about election fraud? Only saw a couple of minutes of it after a friend called me. Seems like a really big deal.

Lol! The rambling incoherent monologue of an insane man. Only to be outdone by his last press conference from the parking lot of the four seasons landscaping company across from the dildo mart.

Face the facts, M. Your man lost to the worst candidate in our countrys history.

Well doodle, in spite of your aspersions, for the sake of my friends and our country, our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, and whatever offspring they may produce, I sure hope you are correct. And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition. I do agree with you that former VP Biden is the probably the worst (I'll define that for you: most corrupt, lying, unprincipled, no backbone of his own) presidential candidate in our country's history; I truly feel sorry for the man on how he is being used by many people the party he represents.

God's blessings and have a marvelous day.

You are preaching ends justify means.

In what other areas in your life do you ever put your faith in anyone who is a documented liar and, therefore, completely untrustworthy?

From what I've gathered from you in this forum I strongly suspect that your answer would be...."No one else. There is always too much at stake to ever put trust in such a person."

Vinny

Please explain. I don’t understand how you get this ends vs means from me, or that I put my faith in any politicians. Thanks.

Quoting your from above: "And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition."

How else can that be interpreted that other than "the ends justify the means" and you support someone who is documented liar and whom you'd otherwise never trust?

No secret I have major problems with Trump, not the least that he seems to possess even one positive character trait we tend to prize in our leaders, coworkers, friends, family members.

I also have my problems with Biden, which is why I also did not vote for him. When severe problems develop with him and his administration I don't want to feel complicit.

Vinny

Vinny, your answer to my question may answer it in your mind, but not in mine. I may have previously not been clear as to my thoughts, forgive me, and let me try again to explain my views:

1. President Trump is not my man, nor is former VP Biden. I think they both have serious character flaws (as do all of us) from what I hear them say and do; I do not know them personally so I guess you could say I'm basing my opinion on hearsay. I am not into moralism as a religion (or as some might say 'moralistic therapeutic deism') and I think that Christ-like behavior as defined in Scripture is a virtue even though no human lives up to that example.

2. No politician is 'my man'. I think they mostly all are self-serving and will do whatever they think will further their careers, or best line their pockets. I do think some are better than others.

3. I do not put my faith in man; I'm actually quite surprised you would gather that from all of my previous posting. Psalm 146:3 (ESV) Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

4. I think the policies of the current Republican administration (flawed as they are since they are put forth by self-serving politicians and bureaucrats) are better for US citizens than the policies of the Democrats, particularly concerning the First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments. Life is not black and white, it is a huge spectrum from darkness to light. I think the R's policies bring and will keep the US closer to light than the D's in spite of all the things I do not like about the R's policies.

5. I think God puts our civil rulers in place for reasons we may not understand; I believe God rules over the civil realm as well as the spiritual realm. I think we should follow those rulers unless they conflict with clear Biblical teaching; in case of conflict we should, follow God, resist the civil rulers, and be ready to bear the consequences. In regard for how I'm told to live my life by our rulers, I think President Trump conflicts with Biblical teaching less than what I perceive former VP Biden does and would do, especially when it comes to matters of life, death, and freedom for the people who live in the United States.

6. I do not think ends justify the means (if you intend to say you think that I said favorable ends should and should be allowed to be pursued by unethical means - e.g. torture to obtain a confession). I think ends and means are both important. I think I am justified (made righteous) because of what Christ did on the cross - that is the only justification that is truly important.

Thus, I still fail to understand why you perceive I endorse "ends justify the means" re. President Trump and his policies, and secondly, why you perceive I put my faith somewhere other than in the Triune God.

Blessings and have a great day!

Thanks you for taking the time to write all that you have. It clarifies much.

There are two parts to it. Your beliefs and how you apply your beliefs.

It is somewhat familiar to reading the Bible. There are the actual words and then there are both the interpretation of those words and the application of those interpretations.

My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny

Not even one?

https://www.familiesofcharacter.com/dev ... -full-list

[vnatale]

So what do you all think about the Rudy G. Et al news conference today about election fraud? Only saw a couple of minutes of it after a friend called me. Seems like a really big deal.

Lol! The rambling incoherent monologue of an insane man. Only to be outdone by his last press conference from the parking lot of the four seasons landscaping company across from the dildo mart.

Face the facts, M. Your man lost to the worst candidate in our countrys history.

Well doodle, in spite of your aspersions, for the sake of my friends and our country, our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, and whatever offspring they may produce, I sure hope you are correct. And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition. I do agree with you that former VP Biden is the probably the worst (I'll define that for you: most corrupt, lying, unprincipled, no backbone of his own) presidential candidate in our country's history; I truly feel sorry for the man on how he is being used by many people the party he represents.

God's blessings and have a marvelous day.

You are preaching ends justify means.

In what other areas in your life do you ever put your faith in anyone who is a documented liar and, therefore, completely untrustworthy?

From what I've gathered from you in this forum I strongly suspect that your answer would be...."No one else. There is always too much at stake to ever put trust in such a person."

Vinny

Please explain. I don’t understand how you get this ends vs means from me, or that I put my faith in any politicians. Thanks.

Quoting your from above: "And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition."

How else can that be interpreted that other than "the ends justify the means" and you support someone who is documented liar and whom you'd otherwise never trust?

No secret I have major problems with Trump, not the least that he seems to possess even one positive character trait we tend to prize in our leaders, coworkers, friends, family members.

I also have my problems with Biden, which is why I also did not vote for him. When severe problems develop with him and his administration I don't want to feel complicit.

Vinny

Vinny, your answer to my question may answer it in your mind, but not in mine. I may have previously not been clear as to my thoughts, forgive me, and let me try again to explain my views:

1. President Trump is not my man, nor is former VP Biden. I think they both have serious character flaws (as do all of us) from what I hear them say and do; I do not know them personally so I guess you could say I'm basing my opinion on hearsay. I am not into moralism as a religion (or as some might say 'moralistic therapeutic deism') and I think that Christ-like behavior as defined in Scripture is a virtue even though no human lives up to that example.

2. No politician is 'my man'. I think they mostly all are self-serving and will do whatever they think will further their careers, or best line their pockets. I do think some are better than others.

3. I do not put my faith in man; I'm actually quite surprised you would gather that from all of my previous posting. Psalm 146:3 (ESV) Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

4. I think the policies of the current Republican administration (flawed as they are since they are put forth by self-serving politicians and bureaucrats) are better for US citizens than the policies of the Democrats, particularly concerning the First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments. Life is not black and white, it is a huge spectrum from darkness to light. I think the R's policies bring and will keep the US closer to light than the D's in spite of all the things I do not like about the R's policies.

5. I think God puts our civil rulers in place for reasons we may not understand; I believe God rules over the civil realm as well as the spiritual realm. I think we should follow those rulers unless they conflict with clear Biblical teaching; in case of conflict we should, follow God, resist the civil rulers, and be ready to bear the consequences. In regard for how I'm told to live my life by our rulers, I think President Trump conflicts with Biblical teaching less than what I perceive former VP Biden does and would do, especially when it comes to matters of life, death, and freedom for the people who live in the United States.

6. I do not think ends justify the means (if you intend to say you think that I said favorable ends should and should be allowed to be pursued by unethical means - e.g. torture to obtain a confession). I think ends and means are both important. I think I am justified (made righteous) because of what Christ did on the cross - that is the only justification that is truly important.

Thus, I still fail to understand why you perceive I endorse "ends justify the means" re. President Trump and his policies, and secondly, why you perceive I put my faith somewhere other than in the Triune God.

Blessings and have a great day!

Thanks you for taking the time to write all that you have. It clarifies much.

There are two parts to it. Your beliefs and how you apply your beliefs.

It is somewhat familiar to reading the Bible. There are the actual words and then there are both the interpretation of those words and the application of those interpretations.

My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny

Not even one?

https://www.familiesofcharacter.com/dev ... -full-list

Not EVEN one!!!

I just quickly scanned the list Had no idea there was so many. But it speaks magnitudes of his total lack of character that he does not even possess ONE!!!!

Therefore, I come back to....whatever his policies are and whatever good those policies may accomplish....how can anyone with the character YOU have (it'd not surprise me if you possess ALL 40!) ever believe he has ANY standing to be the president of this country?

Again, I don't believe Biden either has standing for being the president, which is why I also did not vote for him.

Vinny

[InsuranceGuy]

[deleted]

[doodle]

My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny

This has to be one of the most insane comments I have read on this forum. You have completely lost touch with reality.

Thank goodness presidents cannot be removed from office because someone thinks they know better than the American electorate whether or not a person has the character virtues requisite to be president. Can you imagine Republicans saying Obama or Biden should be outright rejected as being president of our country?

Many of the same people who hate Trump now in NY and DC and in the media invited him to family and other social gatherings before his political career. This man is not the Hitler celebrities and news media want you to believe he is. They have been crying wolf about him since the day he got in office.

It's ridiculous I have ot even say this as I'm not a Trump supporter, I don't even like the guy, yet can't understand the craziness that comes out of people mouths who dislike him.

Rome is burning and Nero is golfing. Trump is rat poison squared.

[vnatale]

My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny

This has to be one of the most insane comments I have read on this forum. You have completely lost touch with reality.

Thank goodness presidents cannot be removed from office because someone thinks they know better than the American electorate whether or not a person has the character virtues requisite to be president. Can you imagine Republicans saying Obama or Biden should be outright rejected as being president of our country?

Many of the same people who hate Trump now in NY and DC and in the media invited him to family and other social gatherings before his political career. This man is not the Hitler celebrities and news media want you to believe he is. They have been crying wolf about him since the day he got in office.

It's ridiculous I have ot even say this as I'm not a Trump supporter, I don't even like the guy, yet can't understand the craziness that comes out of people mouths who dislike him.

I've never hated him. Find him to be highly entertaining. Just not qualified to be president. He has yet to achieve the emotional disdain that I had for Obama's predecessor. He may, though, unlike Trump may have had some character virtues. I'd have to again review that list.


Vinny

[pmward]

My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny

This has to be one of the most insane comments I have read on this forum. You have completely lost touch with reality.

Thank goodness presidents cannot be removed from office because someone thinks they know better than the American electorate whether or not a person has the character virtues requisite to be president. Can you imagine Republicans saying Obama or Biden should be outright rejected as being president of our country?

Many of the same people who hate Trump now in NY and DC and in the media invited him to family and other social gatherings before his political career. This man is not the Hitler celebrities and news media want you to believe he is. They have been crying wolf about him since the day he got in office.

It's ridiculous I have ot even say this as I'm not a Trump supporter, I don't even like the guy, yet can't understand the craziness that comes out of people mouths who dislike him.

TDS is a real problem, not just a meme. These people are indeed insane with hatred for no valid reason.
Most of the blame goes to the vast majority of the lamestream media, which has abandoned any pretense of objectivity and is just 24/7 hatred and propaganda.

Tinfoil hat syndrome (THS) is also a problem on the "right", for the same reason of the "lamestream media, which has abandoned any pretense of objectivity and is just 24/7 hatred and propaganda." You just keep being a shining example of your own insults.