Election meaningless unless we change for the better

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InsuranceGuy
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Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by InsuranceGuy » Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:11 pm

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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by boglerdude » Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:03 am

Media sides with Biden. It'll go back to what it was like under Obama
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by doodle » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:09 am

As I posted in toxic Media, I believe our population is being manipulated and intentionally confused by various interested parties. Some of them foreign state actors such as Russia and China that want to bring us to our knees but don't dare start a conventional war with us. Their plan is to sew seeds of discord within us to the point where we literally destroy ourselves from the inside.

Some of them are powerful corporate interests that benefit from keeping the population confused and afraid. The media in general is aware that fear based narratives and conflicts hold peoples attention. Whether this is on the right or the left it doesn't matter. Both sides have their narratives. They whip up opinion based stories to intentionally inflame their audiences emotions instead of remaining based in fact or maintaining boring journalistic integrity.

Currently I don't see any hope of us becoming civil towards one another when our passions are being constantly inflamed in this way. I think at this point, if something doesn't change we are going to tear this nation to pieces. That will be great news for Putin, Xi and any other autocrat that wants to operate as they please on the world stage without fear of repercussions.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by pp4me » Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:43 pm

doodle wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:09 am
As I posted in toxic Media, I believe our population is being manipulated and intentionally confused by various interested parties. Some of them foreign state actors such as Russia and China that want to bring us to our knees but don't dare start a conventional war with us. Their plan is to sew seeds of discord within us to the point where we literally destroy ourselves from the inside.
Personally, I tend to think there is major manipulation but it is more "domestic" than "foreign". I'd say we have to wait to see hard evidence either way but then again I wonder if that is even possible. One side says "there is no evidence" and censors opposing voices while the other says "here's the evidence". We saw it with the Putin/Russia thing, the Hunter Biden thing, and now the election. I'm kind of getting your point that we need an authoritative voice of information that we can really trust but I think we are way beyond that and it isn't even possible.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by InsuranceGuy » Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:30 am

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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by pp4me » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:37 pm

I think it is well within our capabilities to build a voting system that is as close to 100% reliable as it can be. I mean, we can and have sent people to the moon and right now we have a rover on Mars being remotely controlled at NASA. So how is it possible that we cannot do this?

The only answer I have is because it's politically impossible and this is because one side of the political spectrum fears accuracy in the data. To them, accuracy = voter suppression which I take to mean that it will not allow them to cheat. Why else would they oppose accuracy whenever Republicans suggest it - like even such a simple thing as requiring an ID to vote. Can't think of any other reasons myself but I'm open to suggestions.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by Tortoise » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:44 pm

pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:37 pm
I think it is well within our capabilities to build a voting system that is as close to 100% reliable as it can be. I mean, we can and have sent people to the moon and right now we have a rover on Mars being remotely controlled at NASA. So how is it possible that we cannot do this?

The only answer I have is because it's politically impossible and this is because one side of the political spectrum fears accuracy in the data. To them, accuracy = voter suppression which I take to mean that it will not allow them to cheat. Why else would they oppose accuracy whenever Republicans suggest it - like even such a simple thing as requiring an ID to vote. Can't think of any other reasons myself but I'm open to suggestions.
I think the Dem push-back against voter IDs is mainly for the simple reason that it would reduce the number of likely Dem votes (illegal immigrants and people who are too lazy to go through the steps to obtain a voter ID). They claim it would "disenfranchise" them.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by pmward » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:58 pm

pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:37 pm
I think it is well within our capabilities to build a voting system that is as close to 100% reliable as it can be. I mean, we can and have sent people to the moon and right now we have a rover on Mars being remotely controlled at NASA. So how is it possible that we cannot do this?
This system is already here, it's called blockchain. The problem is that fairness and reduced fraud are really not what this is about. It's a facade that is hiding the true intent. If they really wanted fairness, full tracking, and full immutability they would institute blockchain and allow people to vote that way. But, as mentioned in the other thread, this would encourage the young (mostly liberal) voters to turn out in greater numbers, and that would actually work against them. Do they want fairness or to win? They want to win. They could give a shit about fairness. If there is fraud, there is fraud on both sides.
pp4me wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:37 pm
The only answer I have is because it's politically impossible and this is because one side of the political spectrum fears accuracy in the data. To them, accuracy = voter suppression which I take to mean that it will not allow them to cheat. Why else would they oppose accuracy whenever Republicans suggest it - like even such a simple thing as requiring an ID to vote. Can't think of any other reasons myself but I'm open to suggestions.
I have not seen this fear of voting accuracy. I have not seen anyone say that Trump is not in his rights to file suits. I have not seen anyone say that fraud is good or that an investigation should be avoided if there is question. But the fact is that the courts keep dismissing case after case for lack of evidence. It's a moot point. I don't think Trump actually holds any hope that he will win. It's all a show. It's a political tactic to help him keep his fist firmly around the Republican Party when he is out of office and to set up the narrative for his 2024 campaign.

Aside from that I agree with the general sentiment of this thread. I think the political divide we currently have is the single biggest threat to our country today. I think both sides have legitimate gripes and a legitimate reason to be unhappy. I actually think there are more similarities between the average conservative and average liberal than we give them credit for. They all feel powerless and manipulated. They all know something is not right in the division of wealth, prosperity, and power in our country. They all want to be free, to have a chance at the American dream. They all want to have a fair shake. They all want to feel accepted, valued, and free of repression. If we look at how much in common both sides have, and the real problem being that the low and middle class have been held down at the upper classes expense, well I think there is hope in that middle ground to eventually come to some bipartisan solutions that can actually make a difference and fix the real issues that are the root cause of this polarization.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by doodle » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:22 pm


They all know something is not right in the division of wealth, prosperity, and power in our country. They all want to be free, to have a chance at the American dream. They all want to have a fair shake. They all want to feel accepted, valued, and free of repression. If we look at how much in common both sides have, and the real problem being that the low and middle class have been held down at the upper classes expense, well I think there is hope in that middle ground to eventually come to some bipartisan solutions that can actually make a difference and fix the real issues that are the root cause of this polarization.
That is communist heresy on this board.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by Maddy » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:37 pm


They all know something is not right in the division of wealth, prosperity, and power in our country. They all want to be free, to have a chance at the American dream. They all want to have a fair shake. They all want to feel accepted, valued, and free of repression. If we look at how much in common both sides have, and the real problem being that the low and middle class have been held down at the upper classes expense, well I think there is hope in that middle ground to eventually come to some bipartisan solutions that can actually make a difference and fix the real issues that are the root cause of this polarization.
Who could disagree with that? Which leads me to ask why the Progressive Left is lining up behind the very worst of the oppressors.

Maybe because what they really want is a seat at the table?
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:11 pm

onward
Aside from that I agree with the general sentiment of this thread. I think the political divide we currently have is the single biggest threat to our country today. I think both sides have legitimate gripes and a legitimate reason to be unhappy. I actually think there are more similarities between the average conservative and average liberal than we give them credit for. They all feel powerless and manipulated. They all know something is not right in the division of wealth, prosperity, and power in our country. They all want to be free, to have a chance at the American dream. They all want to have a fair shake. They all want to feel accepted, valued, and free of repression. If we look at how much in common both sides have, and the real problem being that the low and middle class have been held down at the upper classes expense, well I think there is hope in that middle ground to eventually come to some bipartisan solutions that can actually make a difference and fix the real issues that are the root cause of this polarization.
I really don’t know any conservatives who feel like that. Basically they take responsibility for their lives and want to be left in peace. The pursuit of happiness as it was put famously.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by pmward » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:23 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:11 pm
onward
Aside from that I agree with the general sentiment of this thread. I think the political divide we currently have is the single biggest threat to our country today. I think both sides have legitimate gripes and a legitimate reason to be unhappy. I actually think there are more similarities between the average conservative and average liberal than we give them credit for. They all feel powerless and manipulated. They all know something is not right in the division of wealth, prosperity, and power in our country. They all want to be free, to have a chance at the American dream. They all want to have a fair shake. They all want to feel accepted, valued, and free of repression. If we look at how much in common both sides have, and the real problem being that the low and middle class have been held down at the upper classes expense, well I think there is hope in that middle ground to eventually come to some bipartisan solutions that can actually make a difference and fix the real issues that are the root cause of this polarization.
I really don’t know any conservatives who feel like that. Basically they take responsibility for their lives and want to be left in peace. The pursuit of happiness as it was put famously.
What about all the conservatives that fret over immigrants taking their jobs? That fret about taxes? That fret about a push for diversity that might not favor them? Both sides feel this way, it just comes out in a different manner.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by doodle » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:24 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:11 pm
I really don’t know any conservatives who feel like that.


Vs.

Maddy wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:37 pm
Who could disagree with that?
I'm confused.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by pmward » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:26 pm

Maddy wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:37 pm

They all know something is not right in the division of wealth, prosperity, and power in our country. They all want to be free, to have a chance at the American dream. They all want to have a fair shake. They all want to feel accepted, valued, and free of repression. If we look at how much in common both sides have, and the real problem being that the low and middle class have been held down at the upper classes expense, well I think there is hope in that middle ground to eventually come to some bipartisan solutions that can actually make a difference and fix the real issues that are the root cause of this polarization.
Who could disagree with that? Which leads me to ask why the Progressive Left is lining up behind the very worst of the oppressors.

Maybe because what they really want is a seat at the table?
Both sides are trying to oppress the other. Both sides are trying to force their will on the other. Both sides are trying to control the other. These things go both ways. There is no innocent side here.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by pmward » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:33 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:22 pm

They all know something is not right in the division of wealth, prosperity, and power in our country. They all want to be free, to have a chance at the American dream. They all want to have a fair shake. They all want to feel accepted, valued, and free of repression. If we look at how much in common both sides have, and the real problem being that the low and middle class have been held down at the upper classes expense, well I think there is hope in that middle ground to eventually come to some bipartisan solutions that can actually make a difference and fix the real issues that are the root cause of this polarization.
That is communist heresy on this board.
There is a difference in being descriptive and being prescriptive. All I did was identify and describe a problem that is evident in the way that the large majority of American's feel. I made no prescription to fix that problem. I simply said I have faith that cooler heads will prevail eventually in a bipartisan manner. How is this moderate hope a communist heresy?
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by doodle » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:37 pm

pmward wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:33 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:22 pm

They all know something is not right in the division of wealth, prosperity, and power in our country. They all want to be free, to have a chance at the American dream. They all want to have a fair shake. They all want to feel accepted, valued, and free of repression. If we look at how much in common both sides have, and the real problem being that the low and middle class have been held down at the upper classes expense, well I think there is hope in that middle ground to eventually come to some bipartisan solutions that can actually make a difference and fix the real issues that are the root cause of this polarization.
That is communist heresy on this board.
There is a difference in being descriptive and being prescriptive. All I did was identify and describe a problem that is evident in the way that the large majority of American's feel. I made no prescription to fix that problem. I simply said I have faith that cooler heads will prevail eventually in a bipartisan manner. How is this moderate opinion a communist heresy?
I have become the resident communist here for expressing that there is an issue with disparity in wealth, prosperity, and power in this country.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by pmward » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:45 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:37 pm
pmward wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:33 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:22 pm

They all know something is not right in the division of wealth, prosperity, and power in our country. They all want to be free, to have a chance at the American dream. They all want to have a fair shake. They all want to feel accepted, valued, and free of repression. If we look at how much in common both sides have, and the real problem being that the low and middle class have been held down at the upper classes expense, well I think there is hope in that middle ground to eventually come to some bipartisan solutions that can actually make a difference and fix the real issues that are the root cause of this polarization.
That is communist heresy on this board.
There is a difference in being descriptive and being prescriptive. All I did was identify and describe a problem that is evident in the way that the large majority of American's feel. I made no prescription to fix that problem. I simply said I have faith that cooler heads will prevail eventually in a bipartisan manner. How is this moderate opinion a communist heresy?
I have become the resident communist here for expressing that there is an issue with disparity in wealth, prosperity, and power in this country.
Ah I see, I misinterpreted, lol. But yeah, there is definitely an imbalance that really became exacerbated around the time of the financial crisis. All of these political issues today point back to that time and point to that disparity either directly or indirectly. All roads lead to Rome on both sides of the political agenda. When the majority of Americans share in prosperity then the political environment is quiet and boring. It's only when there is discrepancy in the distribution of prosperity, happiness, and freedoms that the political environment gets dramatic like it is now. Your average lower or middle class person on both the left and right is right to feel like their prosperity, happiness, and freedoms are threatened. They are right to feel like someone else is profiting at their expense. They are right to feel like they are being held down. They are pointing the finger in the wrong place though. The problem is, the people that are actually exploiting both sides pulled an incredible Houdini magic trick and fooled them all to think it is the other side that is oppressing them. Then they sit back and continue to prosper while both sides duke it out. The old divide and conquer tactic is one of the oldest in the book, and it still works.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by doodle » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:34 pm

pmward wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:45 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:37 pm
pmward wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:33 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:22 pm

They all know something is not right in the division of wealth, prosperity, and power in our country. They all want to be free, to have a chance at the American dream. They all want to have a fair shake. They all want to feel accepted, valued, and free of repression. If we look at how much in common both sides have, and the real problem being that the low and middle class have been held down at the upper classes expense, well I think there is hope in that middle ground to eventually come to some bipartisan solutions that can actually make a difference and fix the real issues that are the root cause of this polarization.
That is communist heresy on this board.
There is a difference in being descriptive and being prescriptive. All I did was identify and describe a problem that is evident in the way that the large majority of American's feel. I made no prescription to fix that problem. I simply said I have faith that cooler heads will prevail eventually in a bipartisan manner. How is this moderate opinion a communist heresy?
I have become the resident communist here for expressing that there is an issue with disparity in wealth, prosperity, and power in this country.
Ah I see, I misinterpreted, lol. But yeah, there is definitely an imbalance that really became exacerbated around the time of the financial crisis. All of these political issues today point back to that time and point to that disparity either directly or indirectly. All roads lead to Rome on both sides of the political agenda. When the majority of Americans share in prosperity then the political environment is quiet and boring. It's only when there is discrepancy in the distribution of prosperity, happiness, and freedoms that the political environment gets dramatic like it is now. Your average lower or middle class person on both the left and right is right to feel like their prosperity, happiness, and freedoms are threatened. They are right to feel like someone else is profiting at their expense. They are right to feel like they are being held down. They are pointing the finger in the wrong place though. The problem is, the people that are actually exploiting both sides pulled an incredible Houdini magic trick and fooled them all to think it is the other side that is oppressing them. Then they sit back and continue to prosper while both sides duke it out. The old divide and conquer tactic is one of the oldest in the book, and it still works.
I agree 100%
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by doodle » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:38 pm

In some ways, Trump was attempting to address this...problems with Nafta, china, immigration, etc. If he had a different approach and personality I think we really could have made headway. It's a shame he was so ill suited to lead. I won't say the media made it easy, but he also didn't exactly behave like an adult....at the moment he seems to be throwing some weird kind of pouty grandpa tantrum. It's very odd.

I think many of his policy ideas though shouldn't be abandoned. We just need someone who can build consensus around these issues....and is also not an criminal pathological liar and elitist conman (sorry for the dig...I should probably go silent on my opinion of him)
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by doodle » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:46 pm

Have cuomo on...can't take much more though. This is not news...it's ratings driven propaganda...borderline brainwashing.....not that I disagree with this particular message on outcome of election. His tenacity at promoting policy however makes him a pundit more than a news journalist.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by InsuranceGuy » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:06 pm

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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:15 am

Hey people, if a man can self-identify as a woman and push his delusion on everyone else to accept, why can't President Trump self-identify as POTUS for the next 4 years and everyone just gleefully fall in line?

>:D
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by pmward » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:47 am

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:06 pm
pmward wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:26 pm
Both sides are trying to oppress the other. Both sides are trying to force their will on the other. Both sides are trying to control the other. These things go both ways. There is no innocent side here.
I think on some level this is getting at the heart of the problem. Why can't congress agree to disagree and push decisions to the states? One size fits all solutions are not going to work as both the demographics, geography, and needs of every state/region are different.
Yes tyranny of the majority is the one form of tyranny that democracy doesn't guard against. And I think we see both sides upset about this right now. On one side you have a group of people that have been historically oppressed here and been the victim of this tyranny of the majority. For the first time in history these people are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, and they understandably want to fight to get their turn in the sun. On the other hand you have a people that have been the benefactors of that tyranny of the majority, that see the majority starting to slip out of their grasp. They understandably want to fight to keep their place in the sun. There simply is no way to avoid tyranny of the majority in a democracy. As you alluded to, there is really no way to divide things up so they are always perennially fair for everyone.
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by doodle » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:08 am

Why not push decisions to county level? One of the things that impressed me about california is how republican it was outside any population center. Take a look at this county map. Half the population lives inside the yellow counties, half lives outside it. Obviously the yellow leans predominantly blue, the rest red.
g4pkiwtewvy51.png
g4pkiwtewvy51.png (213.81 KiB) Viewed 3676 times
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Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by pmward » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:15 am

doodle wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:08 am
Why not push decisions to county level? One of the things that impressed me about california is how republican it was outside any population center. Take a look at this county map. Half the population lives inside the yellow counties, half lives outside it. Obviously the yellow leans predominantly blue, the rest red.

g4pkiwtewvy51.png
You can still get tyranny of the majority in those counties. Not every person in those red counties is red themselves. Also, one has to take into account that those are mostly rural areas. So you likely have a white majority, but lots of minority farm workers that likely would be strongly oppressed by the majority. So you can divide things up all you want, but you still wind up with the same problems... and maybe even more extreme...
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