Election meaningless unless we change for the better

User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4188
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:21 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:43 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:03 am
vnatale wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:59 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:45 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:46 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:32 am
doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:58 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:40 pm
So what do you all think about the Rudy G. Et al news conference today about election fraud? Only saw a couple of minutes of it after a friend called me. Seems like a really big deal.

Lol! The rambling incoherent monologue of an insane man. Only to be outdone by his last press conference from the parking lot of the four seasons landscaping company across from the dildo mart.

Face the facts, M. Your man lost to the worst candidate in our countrys history.
Well doodle, in spite of your aspersions, for the sake of my friends and our country, our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, and whatever offspring they may produce, I sure hope you are correct. And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition. I do agree with you that former VP Biden is the probably the worst (I'll define that for you: most corrupt, lying, unprincipled, no backbone of his own) presidential candidate in our country's history; I truly feel sorry for the man on how he is being used by many people the party he represents.

God's blessings and have a marvelous day. :)
You are preaching ends justify means.

In what other areas in your life do you ever put your faith in anyone who is a documented liar and, therefore, completely untrustworthy?

From what I've gathered from you in this forum I strongly suspect that your answer would be...."No one else. There is always too much at stake to ever put trust in such a person."

Vinny
Please explain. I don’t understand how you get this ends vs means from me, or that I put my faith in any politicians. Thanks.
Quoting your from above: "And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition."

How else can that be interpreted that other than "the ends justify the means" and you support someone who is documented liar and whom you'd otherwise never trust?

No secret I have major problems with Trump, not the least that he seems to possess even one positive character trait we tend to prize in our leaders, coworkers, friends, family members.

I also have my problems with Biden, which is why I also did not vote for him. When severe problems develop with him and his administration I don't want to feel complicit.

Vinny
Vinny, your answer to my question may answer it in your mind, but not in mine. I may have previously not been clear as to my thoughts, forgive me, and let me try again to explain my views:

1. President Trump is not my man, nor is former VP Biden. I think they both have serious character flaws (as do all of us) from what I hear them say and do; I do not know them personally so I guess you could say I'm basing my opinion on hearsay. I am not into moralism as a religion (or as some might say 'moralistic therapeutic deism') and I think that Christ-like behavior as defined in Scripture is a virtue even though no human lives up to that example.

2. No politician is 'my man'. I think they mostly all are self-serving and will do whatever they think will further their careers, or best line their pockets. I do think some are better than others.

3. I do not put my faith in man; I'm actually quite surprised you would gather that from all of my previous posting. Psalm 146:3 (ESV) Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

4. I think the policies of the current Republican administration (flawed as they are since they are put forth by self-serving politicians and bureaucrats) are better for US citizens than the policies of the Democrats, particularly concerning the First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments. Life is not black and white, it is a huge spectrum from darkness to light. I think the R's policies bring and will keep the US closer to light than the D's in spite of all the things I do not like about the R's policies.

5. I think God puts our civil rulers in place for reasons we may not understand; I believe God rules over the civil realm as well as the spiritual realm. I think we should follow those rulers unless they conflict with clear Biblical teaching; in case of conflict we should, follow God, resist the civil rulers, and be ready to bear the consequences. In regard for how I'm told to live my life by our rulers, I think President Trump conflicts with Biblical teaching less than what I perceive former VP Biden does and would do, especially when it comes to matters of life, death, and freedom for the people who live in the United States.

6. I do not think ends justify the means (if you intend to say you think that I said favorable ends should and should be allowed to be pursued by unethical means - e.g. torture to obtain a confession). I think ends and means are both important. I think I am justified (made righteous) because of what Christ did on the cross - that is the only justification that is truly important.

Thus, I still fail to understand why you perceive I endorse "ends justify the means" re. President Trump and his policies, and secondly, why you perceive I put my faith somewhere other than in the Triune God.

Blessings and have a great day!
Thanks you for taking the time to write all that you have. It clarifies much.

There are two parts to it. Your beliefs and how you apply your beliefs.

It is somewhat familiar to reading the Bible. There are the actual words and then there are both the interpretation of those words and the application of those interpretations.

My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny
Not even one?

https://www.familiesofcharacter.com/dev ... -full-list
I marvel at the creation - its beauty, its endurance, its complexity. I marvel that man can make complex things but is incapable of making even the simplest living organism - a blade of grass, a tree, an ant, an amoeba.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4670
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:50 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:21 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:43 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:03 am
vnatale wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:59 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:45 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:46 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:32 am
doodle wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:58 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:40 pm
So what do you all think about the Rudy G. Et al news conference today about election fraud? Only saw a couple of minutes of it after a friend called me. Seems like a really big deal.

Lol! The rambling incoherent monologue of an insane man. Only to be outdone by his last press conference from the parking lot of the four seasons landscaping company across from the dildo mart.

Face the facts, M. Your man lost to the worst candidate in our countrys history.
Well doodle, in spite of your aspersions, for the sake of my friends and our country, our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, and whatever offspring they may produce, I sure hope you are correct. And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition. I do agree with you that former VP Biden is the probably the worst (I'll define that for you: most corrupt, lying, unprincipled, no backbone of his own) presidential candidate in our country's history; I truly feel sorry for the man on how he is being used by many people the party he represents.

God's blessings and have a marvelous day. :)
You are preaching ends justify means.

In what other areas in your life do you ever put your faith in anyone who is a documented liar and, therefore, completely untrustworthy?

From what I've gathered from you in this forum I strongly suspect that your answer would be...."No one else. There is always too much at stake to ever put trust in such a person."

Vinny
Please explain. I don’t understand how you get this ends vs means from me, or that I put my faith in any politicians. Thanks.
Quoting your from above: "And, FWIW, President Trump is not my man, but his policies are mostly policies I support and policies that I believe are far better for our country than his press and progressive opposition."

How else can that be interpreted that other than "the ends justify the means" and you support someone who is documented liar and whom you'd otherwise never trust?

No secret I have major problems with Trump, not the least that he seems to possess even one positive character trait we tend to prize in our leaders, coworkers, friends, family members.

I also have my problems with Biden, which is why I also did not vote for him. When severe problems develop with him and his administration I don't want to feel complicit.

Vinny
Vinny, your answer to my question may answer it in your mind, but not in mine. I may have previously not been clear as to my thoughts, forgive me, and let me try again to explain my views:

1. President Trump is not my man, nor is former VP Biden. I think they both have serious character flaws (as do all of us) from what I hear them say and do; I do not know them personally so I guess you could say I'm basing my opinion on hearsay. I am not into moralism as a religion (or as some might say 'moralistic therapeutic deism') and I think that Christ-like behavior as defined in Scripture is a virtue even though no human lives up to that example.

2. No politician is 'my man'. I think they mostly all are self-serving and will do whatever they think will further their careers, or best line their pockets. I do think some are better than others.

3. I do not put my faith in man; I'm actually quite surprised you would gather that from all of my previous posting. Psalm 146:3 (ESV) Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

4. I think the policies of the current Republican administration (flawed as they are since they are put forth by self-serving politicians and bureaucrats) are better for US citizens than the policies of the Democrats, particularly concerning the First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments. Life is not black and white, it is a huge spectrum from darkness to light. I think the R's policies bring and will keep the US closer to light than the D's in spite of all the things I do not like about the R's policies.

5. I think God puts our civil rulers in place for reasons we may not understand; I believe God rules over the civil realm as well as the spiritual realm. I think we should follow those rulers unless they conflict with clear Biblical teaching; in case of conflict we should, follow God, resist the civil rulers, and be ready to bear the consequences. In regard for how I'm told to live my life by our rulers, I think President Trump conflicts with Biblical teaching less than what I perceive former VP Biden does and would do, especially when it comes to matters of life, death, and freedom for the people who live in the United States.

6. I do not think ends justify the means (if you intend to say you think that I said favorable ends should and should be allowed to be pursued by unethical means - e.g. torture to obtain a confession). I think ends and means are both important. I think I am justified (made righteous) because of what Christ did on the cross - that is the only justification that is truly important.

Thus, I still fail to understand why you perceive I endorse "ends justify the means" re. President Trump and his policies, and secondly, why you perceive I put my faith somewhere other than in the Triune God.

Blessings and have a great day!
Thanks you for taking the time to write all that you have. It clarifies much.

There are two parts to it. Your beliefs and how you apply your beliefs.

It is somewhat familiar to reading the Bible. There are the actual words and then there are both the interpretation of those words and the application of those interpretations.

My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny
Not even one?

https://www.familiesofcharacter.com/dev ... -full-list
Not EVEN one!!!

I just quickly scanned the list Had no idea there was so many. But it speaks magnitudes of his total lack of character that he does not even possess ONE!!!!

Therefore, I come back to....whatever his policies are and whatever good those policies may accomplish....how can anyone with the character YOU have (it'd not surprise me if you possess ALL 40!) ever believe he has ANY standing to be the president of this country?

Again, I don't believe Biden either has standing for being the president, which is why I also did not vote for him.

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
User avatar
InsuranceGuy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 305
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:44 pm

Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by InsuranceGuy » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:23 am

vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:43 am
My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny
This has to be one of the most insane comments I have read on this forum. You have completely lost touch with reality.

Thank goodness presidents cannot be removed from office because someone thinks they know better than the American electorate whether or not a person has the character virtues requisite to be president. Can you imagine Republicans saying Obama or Biden should be outright rejected as being president of our country?

Many of the same people who hate Trump now in NY and DC and in the media invited him to family and other social gatherings before his political career. This man is not the Hitler celebrities and news media want you to believe he is. They have been crying wolf about him since the day he got in office.

It's ridiculous I have ot even say this as I'm not a Trump supporter, I don't even like the guy, yet can't understand the craziness that comes out of people mouths who dislike him.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3875
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by doodle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:00 am

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:23 am
vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:43 am
My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny
This has to be one of the most insane comments I have read on this forum. You have completely lost touch with reality.

Thank goodness presidents cannot be removed from office because someone thinks they know better than the American electorate whether or not a person has the character virtues requisite to be president. Can you imagine Republicans saying Obama or Biden should be outright rejected as being president of our country?

Many of the same people who hate Trump now in NY and DC and in the media invited him to family and other social gatherings before his political career. This man is not the Hitler celebrities and news media want you to believe he is. They have been crying wolf about him since the day he got in office.

It's ridiculous I have ot even say this as I'm not a Trump supporter, I don't even like the guy, yet can't understand the craziness that comes out of people mouths who dislike him.
Rome is burning and Nero is golfing. Trump is rat poison squared.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4670
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by vnatale » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:12 am

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:23 am
vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:43 am
My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny
This has to be one of the most insane comments I have read on this forum. You have completely lost touch with reality.

Thank goodness presidents cannot be removed from office because someone thinks they know better than the American electorate whether or not a person has the character virtues requisite to be president. Can you imagine Republicans saying Obama or Biden should be outright rejected as being president of our country?

Many of the same people who hate Trump now in NY and DC and in the media invited him to family and other social gatherings before his political career. This man is not the Hitler celebrities and news media want you to believe he is. They have been crying wolf about him since the day he got in office.

It's ridiculous I have ot even say this as I'm not a Trump supporter, I don't even like the guy, yet can't understand the craziness that comes out of people mouths who dislike him.
I've never hated him. Find him to be highly entertaining. Just not qualified to be president. He has yet to achieve the emotional disdain that I had for Obama's predecessor. He may, though, unlike Trump may have had some character virtues. I'd have to again review that list.


Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
User avatar
technovelist
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7233
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:20 pm

Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by technovelist » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:32 am

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:23 am
vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:43 am
My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny
This has to be one of the most insane comments I have read on this forum. You have completely lost touch with reality.

Thank goodness presidents cannot be removed from office because someone thinks they know better than the American electorate whether or not a person has the character virtues requisite to be president. Can you imagine Republicans saying Obama or Biden should be outright rejected as being president of our country?

Many of the same people who hate Trump now in NY and DC and in the media invited him to family and other social gatherings before his political career. This man is not the Hitler celebrities and news media want you to believe he is. They have been crying wolf about him since the day he got in office.

It's ridiculous I have ot even say this as I'm not a Trump supporter, I don't even like the guy, yet can't understand the craziness that comes out of people mouths who dislike him.
TDS is a real problem, not just a meme. These people are indeed insane with hatred for no valid reason.
Most of the blame goes to the vast majority of the lamestream media, which has abandoned any pretense of objectivity and is just 24/7 hatred and propaganda.
Another nod to the most beautiful equation: e + 1 = 0
pmward
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1596
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:38 am

technovelist wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:32 am
InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:23 am
vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:43 am
My bottom line is that due to Trump possessing not one single character virtue he should be outright rejected as being president of our country. No matter how much his or his party's policies better align with the Bible. Common sense dictates that he has never been qualified to lead this country in any way. I just cannot get by that.

Vinny
This has to be one of the most insane comments I have read on this forum. You have completely lost touch with reality.

Thank goodness presidents cannot be removed from office because someone thinks they know better than the American electorate whether or not a person has the character virtues requisite to be president. Can you imagine Republicans saying Obama or Biden should be outright rejected as being president of our country?

Many of the same people who hate Trump now in NY and DC and in the media invited him to family and other social gatherings before his political career. This man is not the Hitler celebrities and news media want you to believe he is. They have been crying wolf about him since the day he got in office.

It's ridiculous I have ot even say this as I'm not a Trump supporter, I don't even like the guy, yet can't understand the craziness that comes out of people mouths who dislike him.
TDS is a real problem, not just a meme. These people are indeed insane with hatred for no valid reason.
Most of the blame goes to the vast majority of the lamestream media, which has abandoned any pretense of objectivity and is just 24/7 hatred and propaganda.
Tinfoil hat syndrome (THS) is also a problem on the "right", for the same reason of the "lamestream media, which has abandoned any pretense of objectivity and is just 24/7 hatred and propaganda." You just keep being a shining example of your own insults.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3875
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by doodle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:28 am

I tried in the beginning to keep things civil....I really did. But my initial criticisms of Trump were met with a diagnosis of terminal stage 4 TDS, and that somehow expressing a concern with growing inequalities and divides in this nation made me a communist. For a while there before election time it felt like this forum had become the third arm of QAnon... So I figured if that's the level of discussion we going to have then why not ride the crazy train! I'm pretty middle of the road...lean left on some issues, right on others. I've been on the forum since 2008...so I know the history. Somewhere in the last few years things took an extreme right hand turn.

Discussions in the last few weeks have gotten a bit heated and out of hand at times. Frankly, I'm frustrated by the propensity of people here to blindly dive into the deep end of conspiracy theories concerning secret election fraud.

There was fraud! But it's no secret and it's being done out in the open day in and day out by a media and information system that is manipulating our democracy. We are being fed bullshit lies and half truths by all manner of unscrupulous actors. The victim in all of this is the truth...and eventually our liberty and democracy.
User avatar
moda0306
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7619
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by moda0306 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:39 am

I think Trump Derangement Syndrome does exist to a degree. Just as Obama Derangement Syndrome and Trump Devotion Syndrome exist (or existed) to a huge degree.

I got emails from conservative uncles who thought Obama was the borderline anti-Christ and an African Communist who hated America. I'm from Central (red) Minnesota. Trust me this $hit is real. Racism is real. Toxic nativism is real.

Americans are tribal, bitter and uninformed. What can I say...
User avatar
InsuranceGuy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 305
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:44 pm

Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by InsuranceGuy » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:28 pm

doodle wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:28 am
I tried in the beginning to keep things civil....I really did. But my initial criticisms of Trump were met with a diagnosis of terminal stage 4 TDS, and that somehow expressing a concern with growing inequalities and divides in this nation made me a communist. For a while there before election time it felt like this forum had become the third arm of QAnon... So I figured if that's the level of discussion we going to have then why not ride the crazy train! I'm pretty middle of the road...lean left on some issues, right on others. I've been on the forum since 2008...so I know the history. Somewhere in the last few years things took an extreme right hand turn.

Discussions in the last few weeks have gotten a bit heated and out of hand at times. Frankly, I'm frustrated by the propensity of people here to blindly dive into the deep end of conspiracy theories concerning secret election fraud.

There was fraud! But it's no secret and it's being done out in the open day in and day out by a media and information system that is manipulating our democracy. We are being fed bullshit lies and half truths by all manner of unscrupulous actors. The victim in all of this is the truth...and eventually our liberty and democracy.
I definitely have my share of Trump criticisms and I have to say if there was election fraud I am still waiting for the smoking gun. It similarly frustrates me that it seems both sides are drinking the Kool-aid of their own side. I do not think the investigations are bad for the country to a point as a deterrant to future fraud, but in the near future we need a concession barring evidence of material fraud.

I do applaud your restraint, you seem to take a respectful and critical look at the issues instead of using CAPS to state opinions as fact as I have seen other posters do. I actually feel we think similarly, I might just be a little more apprehensive to turn control over to the govenment on some items. I think that is the libertarian in me even though I lean left as well.

I wish more people took time to look at both sides as Fox/CNN/MSNBC are not going to give you balanced reporting.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3875
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by doodle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:49 pm

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:28 pm
I wish more people took time to look at both sides as Fox/CNN/MSNBC are not going to give you balanced reporting.
This in my mind is the number one problem. We have created a society where facts don't exist anymore. Any fact that doesn't line up with my idea of how the world should work is simply no longer a fact. We create tribal bubbles for ourselves within our social media accounts or only frequenting the networks that we think represent us. A Google search will provide us thousands of articles confirming our feelings no matter which way we phrase a question.. Under that scenario conversation is no longer even possible. We are literally operating in a world with two different realities. I'm not sure how to solve this. Free speech can be a tool to inform and negotitate or it can whip people up into a frenzy of vitriolic hatred. I have no illusions that perhaps our most cherished freedoms could in fact lead to our downfall. Somehow we must figure out a way to share a common set of facts...from there we can disagree, but those disagreements must stem from a common reality.
User avatar
InsuranceGuy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 305
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:44 pm

Re: Election meaningless unless we change for the better

Post by InsuranceGuy » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:21 pm

doodle wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:49 pm
InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:28 pm
I wish more people took time to look at both sides as Fox/CNN/MSNBC are not going to give you balanced reporting.
This in my mind is the number one problem. We have created a society where facts don't exist anymore. Any fact that doesn't line up with my idea of how the world should work is simply no longer a fact. We create tribal bubbles for ourselves within our social media accounts or only frequenting the networks that we think represent us. A Google search will provide us thousands of articles confirming our feelings no matter which way we phrase a question.. Under that scenario conversation is no longer even possible. We are literally operating in a world with two different realities. I'm not sure how to solve this. Free speech can be a tool to inform and negotitate or it can whip people up into a frenzy of vitriolic hatred. I have no illusions that perhaps our most cherished freedoms could in fact lead to our downfall. Somehow we must figure out a way to share a common set of facts...from there we can disagree, but those disagreements must stem from a common reality.
It is crazy how disallusioned both sides are. The problem is that there is no unbiased fact checking out there, and even if there were I believe it would be fleeting as there is too much money/power to be gained by slanting to the highest bidder.
Post Reply