SilentMajority wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:01 am
Dieter wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:39 pm
SilentMajority wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:37 pm
glennds wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:28 am
seajay wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:20 am
What with the starvation, and now more recent invasion by a vile terrorist neighbour, I'm certain that Ukraine deeply regrets having ever believed Russian promises when it surrendered its nukes.
Caught twice, one would expect Ukraine to never be caught out again. Can't see how a negotiated settlement might ever be agreed when one side is so openly a repeated liar/abuser.
Not to mention the US and UK security guarantees that were part of the 1992 agreement. Makes you wonder how any country can rely on any agreement when the counterparty cites change in change in President as a basis to renege.
This is a very good point glennds, sincerely and truly.
Any nation that makes an agreement with a democracy is very foolish to expect it to be honored. Much safer and more reliable to choose non-democratic partners and alliances as they are more likely to honor agreements, lest their word count for nothing. The executive branch in the US is ultimately in control of our foreign relations and that changes hands every 4-8 years. No sense in making any long term agreements with the US gov't.
A couple of thoughts
* the Russians also signed up to the agreement
* my understanding is that the agreement didn’t include any hard security guarantees (IIRC, the French and Germans didn’t want to antagonize the Russians)
So, yeah, either need a hard treaty or nukes.
Do you think the US government broke the treaty when they overthrew the elected government of the Ukraine in 2014?
Russia made an agreement with the legitimate government of the Ukraine, not the US-controlled one that took power via CIA supported revolution in 2014
I never knew any of this until reading it just now. Paints a totally different picture than the one you are always providing here. Ironic I was led to it from reading a baseball book: "The headline for Markovits’s story, which ran in 2020, was “How McKinsey Destroyed the Middle Class.” Reporters for the New York Times, Walt Bogdanich and Michael Forsythe, wrote a 2018 piece with a similarly striking title: “How McKinsey Has Helped Raise the Stature of Authoritarian Governments.” The investigation cited McKinsey’s work rehabilitating the image of Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych, who has since been found guilty of treason, as well as other unsavory McKinsey engagements in countries like China and Saudi Arabia."
Yanukovych was elected president in 2010, defeating Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. The election was judged free and fair by international observers. In November 2013, a series of events started that led to his ousting as president. Amid pressure from Russia, Yanukovych suddenly changed his mind and rejected a pending association agreement with the EU, instead choosing to pursue closer ties with Russia and a Russian loan bailout. This sparked large protests by supporters of European integration, who occupied Kyiv's Independence Square and held rallies throughout Ukraine, in a wave of civil unrest dubbed the "Euromaidan". In January 2014, this developed into deadly clashes in Kyiv between protesters and Berkut special riot police. There was severe violence in Kyiv on 18–20 February, when police snipers fired on protesters, killing almost 100. On 21 February, Yanukovych and the parliamentary opposition signed an agreement to bring about an interim unity government, constitutional reforms and early elections. Later that day, however, he secretly fled the capital for Kharkiv, claiming his car was shot at as he left Kyiv, and travelling next to Crimea, and eventually to exile in Russia.
On 22 February 2014, the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove him from his post and schedule early elections on the grounds that he had withdrawn from his constitutional duties, rather than through the impeachment process. Two days later, the interim government issued a warrant for his arrest, accusing him of responsibility for "mass killing of civilians". After his departure, Yanukovych held several press conferences, and declared himself to remain "the legitimate head of the Ukrainian state elected in a free vote by Ukrainian citizens". On 18 June 2015, Yanukovych was officially deprived of the title of president by parliament. On 24 January 2019, he was sentenced in absentia to thirteen years' imprisonment for high treason by a Ukrainian court.