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Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:29 am
by Hal
Any thoughts welcome! Enjoy, it runs for 2 1/2 Hrs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4_U6bS-cU4

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:26 pm
by Pet Hog
Thanks, Hal. I did enjoy the conversation. Lots of sanity in Deden's ideas. Definitely recommended for PP aficionados. In essence, his style is to invest in things that are scarce, permanent/enduring, and independent -- gold being a major example (35%), along with salmon farms, barrel makers, and other boring industries led by honorable people. Distrust of governments, finance, media, debt. No mention of his returns, but I guess his clients are happy. The goal is capital preservation, not growth. The video is beautifully filmed, with gorgeous scenery of the Swiss alps. I enjoyed watching for that alone!

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:03 pm
by Xan
Fantastic interview. I haven't quite finished. But he captures a lot of the things we talk about here: how money isn't real but real things are real.

He's not in gold because he thinks it's going to go up: he considers gold to be his liquid asset so he can jump on other things. He certainly doesn't believe that his liquid asset should be a claim on anything else. He doesn't want it to be somebody else's debt, he doesn't trust governments or ratings agencies. So it's gold, which certainly is scarce, permanent, and independent.

He's really down on almost every company, certainly everything where finance is involved. The idea is that any public company's primary business is its stock. The actual business they're in is just an obstacle to the stock going up. He believes in being an OWNER, not an investor. He's in it for the really, really long term. He likes to buy 1, 2, 5, up to 10% of closely held private or semi-private companies which are primarily owned by one or two families.

Bic. Bel. The company that makes the exciter that is in every airbag. There are thousands of companies making whiskey, hundreds making whiskey bottles, but only one that makes machines that make whiskey bottles. He has an interest in that company.

He even said "freedom in an unfree world" at one point! Perhaps he's read the book?

Really the theme is the search for economic value rather than financial value.

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:05 pm
by barrett
Both Pet Hog and Xan have hit the nails on their heads with their summaries of the video. Just wanted to add that gold is discussed from roughly 1:38:10 to 1:48:20.

Not sure how much small, individual investors can take away from the video, but for PP influenced investors it's striking that someone who is only managing about $330,000,000 in assets owns three tons (metric, I assume) of gold.

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:54 pm
by Xan
barrett wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:05 pm
Not sure how much small, individual investors can take away from the video, but for PP influenced investors it's striking that someone who is only managing about $330,000,000 in assets owns three tons (metric, I assume) of gold.
Towards the end he talks about how they're looking into listing their fund on the stock market. The irony is of course not lost. But the point is, it would allow them to be something other than a "rich men's club".

A fund such as this, made primarily of ownership interests in companies which are closely-held, intergenerational, long-lasting, independent, etc, could be an interesting "fifth leg" of a modified PP.

Mr Deden says that he treats the money he's entrusted with as though it's all the money somebody has in the world. He recognizes how hard it is to hold onto real value having acquired it, and that it may not be possible to reacquire it. He believes that "permanent capital" (the kinds of companies he buys) is the answer for "permanent savings". Come to think of it he says a lot of things that sound Browneian.

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:59 pm
by barrett
I have to say that I'm a bit surprised this thread hasn't had more posts due to Deden's insightful thoughts on gold.

One question I had after watching the interview was why he says (just after the 1:46 mark) that gold is cheaper in nominal terms than it was when he first bought it in 2001. At first I thought he must have meant real terms and that he just misspoke. But I'm curious if Deden might have a different measure for gold's value other than what it's actually priced at in USD. Libertarian666, are you still out there?

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:04 pm
by boglerdude
2 hours of confirmation bias for goldbugs :) Natural human skepticism has to be shut off when it comes to passive investing. Not sure what other areas of life are similar.

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:43 pm
by hardlawjockey
boglerdude wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:04 pm
Natural human skepticism has to be shut off when it comes to passive investing. Not sure what other areas of life are similar.
Religion comes to mind, and maybe politics, but I'm not sure what you mean when it comes to passive investing. Are you saying that we should be naturally skeptical of it but aren't?

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:48 pm
by boglerdude
Passive investing is painful cuz we're naturally skeptical, look at all the fruitless hand-wringing on Bogleheads about factors etc. Passive investors cant investigate the businesses they buy, its a leap of faith that the economy will grow

On the other hand skepticism and effort can yield results if you run a business or real estate. With the later you can research neighborhoods, fix it up, wait to swoop on deals etc.

All that said I cant stop reading Bogleheads xD

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:06 pm
by hardlawjockey
boglerdude wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:48 pm
Passive investors cant investigate the businesses they buy, its a leap of faith that the economy will grow
Well, they CAN investigate the businesses they buy, but then they wouldn't be passive investors.

I don't see how it is a leap of faith to believe that economies tend to grow. Unless acted upon by external forces this would seem to be the norm to me.

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:35 pm
by D1984
Xan wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:54 pm
barrett wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:05 pm
Not sure how much small, individual investors can take away from the video, but for PP influenced investors it's striking that someone who is only managing about $330,000,000 in assets owns three tons (metric, I assume) of gold.
A fund such as this, made primarily of ownership interests in companies which are closely-held, intergenerational, long-lasting, independent, etc, could be an interesting "fifth leg" of a modified PP.

Mr Deden says that he treats the money he's entrusted with as though it's all the money somebody has in the world. He recognizes how hard it is to hold onto real value having acquired it, and that it may not be possible to reacquire it. He believes that "permanent capital" (the kinds of companies he buys) is the answer for "permanent savings". Come to think of it he says a lot of things that sound Browneian.
Pet Hog wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:26 pm
No mention of his returns, but I guess his clients are happy. The goal is capital preservation, not growth. The video is beautifully filmed, with gorgeous scenery of the Swiss alps. I enjoyed watching for that alone!
Here is a graph of this fund's return since inception in late 2001:

https://ibb.co/dcGQUT

Not bad; around 8.9% a year it looks like based on what I can scrape from the chart manually and estimate for CAGR. With that said, it still looks like this lost around 30% MaxDD from the mid-2008 high to the late 2008/early 2009 low and hit its highest value around March/April 2011 and still has yet to recover to where it was then.

I wonder how favorably or unfavorably it would compare to something like SGENX or SGOVX (international balanced to moderate/aggressive allocation equity funds ran by First Eagle that also always hold some cash and gold as "dry powder" to take advantage of sudden drops in stock/bond prices to buy more when said assets are "on sale" ) or even an annually rebalanced blend of, say, 70% OAKIX (Oakmark's international value fund), 15% gold, 10% ITTs, and 5% cash.

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:12 am
by boglerdude
> Well, they CAN investigate the businesses they buy, but then they wouldn't be passive investors.

Sort of, but IMO you need insider info to do that effectively. The OP video makes a good point indirectly, that you shouldnt be trading and expect to profit. If Deden's small basket of value stocks will outperform VTSMX is more complicated...especially after his fees ;)

> I don't see how it is a leap of faith to believe that economies tend to grow.

Agreed, but there's a lot of "omg the national debt" "this country is going in the wrong direction" sentiment out there.

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:51 am
by Kriegsspiel
hardlawjockey wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:06 pm
I don't see how it is a leap of faith to believe that economies tend to grow. Unless acted upon by external forces this would seem to be the norm to me.
I guess it depends on how much of an aberration the fossil-fuel era ends up being. For thousands of years economies (well, measuring real incomes, not "economies") didn't really grow:

Image

For economies to continue to grow as they have been for the past few generations, we'll probably need some substantial technological breakthroughs, either in the energy sector, or by making the things we use much more efficient in their use of energy. Otherwise, I'd suspect a convergence on historical norms. So I guess the leap of faith is believing either a) we can create an equivalent to one of the greatest stores of energy in the known universe (fossil fuels), or b) restructure our economy to do without them but continue to grow.

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:05 am
by Xan
boglerdude wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:04 pm
2 hours of confirmation bias for goldbugs :) Natural human skepticism has to be shut off when it comes to passive investing. Not sure what other areas of life are similar.
This video really isn't about gold, although it does touch on it. This guy is not a goldbug, either: he doesn't know whether gold is going to go up or down, and he doesn't particularly care. That's just how he's chosen to store his liquid assets.

Primarily this is about an old-school style of investing, where you think of yourself as an owner rather than as a gambler.

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:57 am
by boglerdude
> we can create an equivalent to one of the greatest stores of energy in the known universe

We could run out of oil, or global warming will force us to stop?

> This guy is not a goldbug

I dunno, 35% gold. . .that means - compared to others - you think theres a high probability of government failure. But, in some countries there is...

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:10 am
by Xan
boglerdude wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:57 am
> we can create an equivalent to one of the greatest stores of energy in the known universe

We could run out of oil, or global warming will force us to stop?

> This guy is not a goldbug

I dunno, 35% gold. . .that means - compared to others - you think theres a high probability of government failure. But, in some countries there is...
Would you call him a T-bill bug if he had 35% in T-bills? This is his liquid position.

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:35 am
by Kriegsspiel
boglerdude wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:57 am
> we can create an equivalent to one of the greatest stores of energy in the known universe

We could run out of oil, or global warming will force us to stop?
Neither of those would allow our economy to continue growing, in all likelihood it would shrink. In any case, we will eventually run out of recoverable fossil fuels, the "leap of faith" is a belief that economies will continue growing in spite of that.

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:51 pm
by boglerdude
Nuclear is doable with political will. Eventually global population will start shrinking, when the markets price that in it could be ugly. Ken Fisher said something like "the markets only look 6 months ahead" been wondering what he meant. iirc it was in here

http://ritholtz.com/2015/12/masters-in- ... vestments/

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:54 pm
by Kriegsspiel
MangoMan wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:24 pm
In a decade, all cars will be electric.
Will we be able to manufacture electric cars without fossil fuels? In any event, I think we'll need to really re-work our transportation system to work with electric cars. Long distance trips, for one.
Isn't it likely that other uses of fossil fuels will also be replaced with better, cleaner technology? So will we really run out? And will it even mater?
I am guessing no, it's not likely. I'd like to be wrong though.

Renewables are not that great overall in terms of pollution reduction/electricity production/cost reduction (see Green Illusions by Zehler for more information). Even nuclear isn't super sweet, when you factor in all the costs like building the plant, refining the uranium, cleaning up after accidents like Fukushima, and disposing of the spent material without it contaminating the area.

Think about how involved fossil fuels are in different stuff than just producing electricity, heating a house, or transportation-juice. Like smelting metals, creating products directly (asphalt, plastics, etc), and probably most importantly, utilizing the Haber-Bosch process to create fertilizer. The products made from fossil fuels have workarounds, but I think wrt smelting/fertilizer/whatever else I didn't think of off the cuff, you don't.

Re: Interesting talk on capital preservation

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:10 am
by Hal
Xan wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:05 am
boglerdude wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:04 pm
2 hours of confirmation bias for goldbugs :) Natural human skepticism has to be shut off when it comes to passive investing. Not sure what other areas of life are similar.
This video really isn't about gold, although it does touch on it. This guy is not a goldbug, either: he doesn't know whether gold is going to go up or down, and he doesn't particularly care. That's just how he's chosen to store his liquid assets.

Primarily this is about an old-school style of investing, where you think of yourself as an owner rather than as a gambler.
Found some more information on Anthony Dedens philosophy - enjoy the read

http://edelweissjournal.com

https://edelweissholdings.com/docs/EH-C ... tation.pdf

and his asset allocation

Listed equity participations (26)—59.1%
Unlisted investments (1)—0.6%
Gold bullion reserves—34.4%
Cash—5.8%