20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

A place to talk about speculative investing ideas for the optional Variable Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
Lone Wolf
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1416
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:15 pm

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by Lone Wolf »

blackomen wrote: Care to share your implementations of the leveraged PP?
Sure thing.  Like MT said, I used the ETFs recommended further up in the thread.

25% SHY = Cash
25% SSO = 2x leveraged S&P 500
25% UBT = 2x leveraged 20+ Year Treasury Bonds
25% UGL = 2x leveraged gold

The "super" version simply throws away the 25% in cash and becomes a 3x33% portfolio.

This is all simulated money, believe me.  Apart from a 529 where I can't implement it, I'm 100% in the Permanent Portfolio (and happy to be there.)
beafet
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:45 pm
Contact:

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by beafet »

How about:

BGU 33%
TMF 33%
UGLD 33%

???
User avatar
Kel
Associate Member
Associate Member
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 1:55 pm
Location: Fairfield, Iowa USA
Contact:

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by Kel »

On the subject of 20% returns over long periods of time I found the following interesting....

Summary Findings by Mebane Faber in response to Joel Goldbalt's Gothlam Capital supposed 40% returns over 20 years

Before I even begin, here are some findings (I use the CRSP return database which starts January 1, 1926 and runs through December 31, 2010):

* Earning 20%+ returns over very long horizons is for all intent and purposes virtually IMPOSSIBLE(assuming the market experience of the past ~90 years is representative of the future).

* 31.5%+ returns over the 1926 to 2010 period imply that an investor will end up owning over halfof the ENTIRE stock market.

* 33%+ returns imply that an investor will end up owning the ENTIRE STOCK MARKET!

* A 40% return will have you owning the entire stock market in ~60 years–not a bad retirement plan!

* A “doable”? 21.5% a year implies an investor will own .62241% of the market at the end of 2010. With a $16.4 trillion total market value as of December 31, 2010, this would imply a personal stock portfolio worth $102 billion!!!

* Warren Buffett–and perhaps a very select handful of others–have been able to achieve 20%+ returns over very long time periods. These individuals represent some of the richest people on the planet because of this very phenomenon.

* An investor might have an epic run of 20% returns for 5, 10, maybe even 15, or 20 years, but as an investor’s capital base grows exponentially, the capital base slowly becomes ALL capital, and all capital cannot outperform itself!

http://www.mebanefaber.com/2011/10/20/4 ... -20-years/
Last edited by Kel on Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
MediumTex
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 9096
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm
Contact:

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by MediumTex »

Kel wrote:
* 33%+ returns imply that an investor will end up owning the ENTIRE STOCK MARKET!
I work with a group of actuaries and I often joke with them about how long it would take using their projected asset return assumptions (normally 8%+ more or less in perpetuity) for the asset they are modeling to swallow up the entire universe.  (Some of them find this amusing and others don't.)

A compounded 8% rate of return turns into a black hole quicker than one would think.

Trees don't grow to the sky and neither do assets in the real world, no matter how skillful the person telling the growth story.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by stone »

Negative real interest rates make all kinds of leverage induced wackyness seem plausible on paper. I guess as the various supposidly 20%+ per year leveraged schemes lock horns; the market will gyrate wildly to ensure that sufficient calamities occur to keep arithmetic obeyed. I guess the situation will unravel as it sucks a bigger and bigger proportion of the economy into ever more complex financialization until the productive kernal of the real economy withers away to nothing.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
User avatar
Lone Wolf
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1416
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:15 pm

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by Lone Wolf »

Kel wrote: * An investor might have an epic run of 20% returns for 5, 10, maybe even 15, or 20 years, but as an investor’s capital base grows exponentially, the capital base slowly becomes ALL capital, and all capital cannot outperform itself!
This has a few interesting implications.

UBT's market cap is only $33 million.  This means that a "Supercharged" Permanent Portfolio of $132 million would own all of UBT.  :)

At 20% growth per year, we'd expect our investment to increase 1470x over 40 years.  (!)  That means that if we start up a $90,000 Leveraged Permanent Portfolio, we'll hit our $132 million target in 40 years.  UBT would be ours!

Sadly, UBT's market cap would of course increase in the intervening years, but it's fun to think about.  It seems to clearly illustrate that something in here is going to fail dramatically well before such a bizarre outcome can take place.  Whatever it is, I'll watch it unfold from the safety and comfort of my "play money" portfolio.

Or does this all mean I should be starting up a $900 Leveraged PP now for the chance to collect $1.32 mill in 40 years?  :)
beafet
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:45 pm
Contact:

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by beafet »

beafet wrote: How about:

BGU 33%
TMF 33%
UGLD 33%

???
FYI, this portfolio is up 4.55% in one day.
Reub
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3158
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:44 pm

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by Reub »

And how much was it down last week?
beafet
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:45 pm
Contact:

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by beafet »

No clue, I just set it up to be tracked on Sunday.
Wonk
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 am

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by Wonk »

Should be interesting to see when or if this experiment will blow up.  After nearly 2 years, it's still on track.  As of today:

1xPP: 26.49% (no rebalance)

2xPP: 61.06% (2 rebalance events)
2xSCPP: 64.18% (2 rebalance events)

After learning of the 3x gold ETN, I decided to add a 3xPP using the 3x funds mentioned above.  UGLD is a baby, so I had to start it at Oct 24, 2011.  Let's see a Lehman-style event and find out what happens.

3xPP: 5.09%
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by stone »

Isn't it true that the Ranaissance Technologies Medallion Fund has had a 30% CAGR for decades? I think Ranaissance Technologies talk about each fund strategy having a certain maximum fund size. So the Medallion Fund has long been closed to new entrants (it is just for employees) and although the holders are employees they charge themselves massive (>30%) "management fees" so as to avoid outgrowing the strategy.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
slk23
Associate Member
Associate Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 1:25 am

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by slk23 »

Clive: isn't a 33 day period too small of a sample to make conclusions from?  The 2x PP (DGP, UBT, SSO) has done pretty well over almost two years: 77% compared to 38% from GLD, TLT, VTI (no rebalancing).
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by stone »

Clive regarding high beta stock holdings, are you familiar with BRSC? From what I can see, the discount increases when the market falls and vice versa. Surely that must add to potential rebalancing gains? I've got my stocks as equal parts BRSC, CTY and TEMIT.
Silver on the face of it does not seem like "high beta gold" to me. The lows of silver seem to mirror the lows of stocks whilst the highs of silver seem to mirror the highs of gold. So it doesn't help if, as with the UK PP at the end of 2008, you want to use gold to rebalance into stocks.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by stone »

Clive, within the context of a PP, I think the discount/premium does have a very strong tendency to swing things in the way you want. Discounts increase at the stock lows and tighten/change to premiums at the highs. I've been really puzzled why that hasn't led to closed-end funds being a part of the standard PP prescription ???
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by MachineGhost »

Trading, not investing.
stone wrote: Isn't it true that the Ranaissance Technologies Medallion Fund has had a 30% CAGR for decades? I think Ranaissance Technologies talk about each fund strategy having a certain maximum fund size. So the Medallion Fund has long been closed to new entrants (it is just for employees) and although the holders are employees they charge themselves massive (>30%) "management fees" so as to avoid outgrowing the strategy.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by stone »

Machine Ghost, I'm not sure what you're getting at.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
User avatar
Storm
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by Storm »

stone wrote: Machine Ghost, I'm not sure what you're getting at.
He's just pointing out that it's not some buy and hold passive fund, it's an actively traded fund, more comparable to a hedge fund than a Vanguard type fund.
"I came here for financial advice, but I've ended up with a bunch of shave soaps and apparently am about to start eating sardines.  Not that I'm complaining, of course." -ZedThou
Wonk
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 am

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by Wonk »

It's been exactly 2 years to the day on this experiment.  Here are the updated numbers:

1xPP: 26.47% (0 rebalance)

2xPP: 62.80% (2 rebalance)

Maybe we can have another 2008 liquidity crisis sometime soon so we can see what happens to these funds.  I've also been tracking an ultimate buy and hold (4-fund) PP, a small cap PP, a 2x small cap PP, a 30-30-30-10(cash) PP, and a 3xPP I added to the mix starting in October '11 out of curiosity.  The main observation is the 1x vs 2x PP.  Will report back in January 2013.
beafet
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:45 pm
Contact:

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by beafet »

beafet wrote: How about:

BGU 33%
TMF 33%
UGLD 33%

???
Checked it today (a little over 2 months from when I started the simulated portfolio at SmartMoney.com), it is currently at 17.60% It fluctuates a percent or two or three most days, but like the standard PP, seems to average an upward trend. Fun to watch anyway.
modeljc
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:52 am

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by modeljc »

Wonk,

What re balance bands would you use for 3XPP, 33% each just for fun.  Is it 46/20?  Anybody out there willing to risk real money? 
clacy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:16 pm

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by clacy »

I might be tempted to look at a 2x HBPP after a 10-15% draw down in the standard version.
modeljc
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:52 am

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by modeljc »

The follwoing link warns of Leverage Trap for 2X and 3X products .  Several other sites also say that the volativity is what kills the returns over longer periods.  http://kidgas.hubpages.com/hub/BewareLe ... oxicAssets
Wonk
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 am

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by Wonk »

modeljc wrote: Wonk,

What re balance bands would you use for 3XPP, 33% each just for fun.  Is it 46/20?  Anybody out there willing to risk real money? 
The 3xPP would be 25%x4, so the same 15/35 rebalancing bands would apply.  For a 33x3PP(no cash) I don't know...

As for the decay issue in leveraged funds, it may exist.  I haven't seen it over 25 months of tracking the leveraged PP, but it may exist.  As of today the numbers were approx 28% 1xPP and 68% 2xPP.
modeljc
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:52 am

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by modeljc »

Wonk,

I went to Yahoo Historical prices.  I looked at the period Oct. 17, 2011 to Feb. 15, 2012.  GLD was 162.62 and went to 168.11 for a 3.3% increase.  UGL was 92.24 and went to 95.81 for a 3.9% increase.  UGLD was 50.10 and went to 51.38 for a 2.6% increase.  The 3/ product UGLD should be up 9.9%.  I then went to ETF replay and they had GLD up 3.4% and UGL up 3.9%. 
Wonk
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 am

Re: 20% annual returns over 40 years...interested?

Post by Wonk »

modeljc wrote: Wonk,

I went to Yahoo Historical prices.  I looked at the period Oct. 17, 2011 to Feb. 15, 2012.  GLD was 162.62 and went to 168.11 for a 3.3% increase.  UGL was 92.24 and went to 95.81 for a 3.9% increase.  UGLD was 50.10 and went to 51.38 for a 2.6% increase.  The 3/ product UGLD should be up 9.9%.  I then went to ETF replay and they had GLD up 3.4% and UGL up 3.9%. 
Leverage funds are created to reflect 2x or 3x daily movements and not any other way.  On an expanded time horizon with little trending movement, it's easy to see tracking error in isolation.  The question for 2x or 3x PP is what happens to the overall portfolio collectively?  I started tracking a 3xPP beginning Oct 24, 2011 and compared it to the same starting date for a 1x and 2x.  The results as of today:

1x: 4.03
2x: 7.25
3x: 10.13

When the 1x portfolio is collectively trending up, the 2xPP experiences more than 2x performance over an extended timeline.  When the 1x portfolio trends sideways, you see the 2x and 3x fail to perform exactly 2x and 3x of the benchmark.  I guess you could label this decay, but it's really just the result of daily compounding.  We haven't seen these funds in a market panic or tight-money recession where the 1x does not perform well, so there's no way to tell how they'd perform.  I suspect if the 1x returns -4% as it did in 1981, the 2x would return something like -10% as the daily compounding would have the same effect(inversely) as what we've seen when it is trending up.
Post Reply