Bitcoin giveaway! :)

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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Kshartle » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:15 pm

Xan wrote:
Kshartle wrote:Ok. Nothing you say could ever convince me that I don't exist. Is my argument that I exist based on faith alone?
Actually, yes.  In what way isn't it?
because I'm the one making the argument. I can't make an argument if I don't exist. You're just being argumentative man. It's fine.

I'm believe I'm typing to you using a computer. This is not based on faith. I'm banging it out on a keyboard and looking at the screen. If you don't think that's enough rationale evidence to prove that my belief isn't based on faith alone then you don't beleive in the concept of rationale proof of anything. In that case why are you even discussing it? Just say you don't believe in the concept of rationale proof of anything and support it or move onto another topic.
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Xan » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:19 pm

Why don't you admit that any rational proof of anything in fact requires faith in the premises, the axioms, the unprovable assumptions that you make before you start proving?
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Kshartle » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:26 pm

stuper1 wrote: In a base 3 system (rather than a base 10 system), 2 plus 2 would equal 11 (I think).  I'm not sure what that adds to this discussion, other than to point out the obvious that you get different answers depending on what system you're working in.

Green papers with dead president on them seem to have some exchange value (plus value to pay taxes, etc.).  Couldn't bitcoins also have some value for facilitating exchanges?  How do we quantify that exchange value?  I'd say the same way we quantify everything else.  How much will people pay for it?  Right now people are paying $900 for a bitcoin.  That will probably go up or down with time.  I'm not sure which.  I agree with others that if it goes up very much, governments will probably step in and squash it at the bankers bidding.  Nevertheless, I've bet a little money on the opposite side.
If I have 2 of something.....and I add two more of that same something....I now have 4 of those somethings.

I've said some of you guys would stand in the middle of a monsoon and swear you weren't getting rained on.

The green paper you are referring has value by FIAT. You are required to accept as payment of debt and required to pay taxes in it under threat of violence and kidnapping. It has value based on the violent threat. There is value in staying out of a cage.

If the US government ceased to exist what would your dollars be worth?

Value can be used to justify price because it explains why someone would want it. Price cannot be used to justify value because it doesn't explain anything.

Every attempt I've seen to justify the idea that bitcoins have value has either been based on characteristics that don't convey value or based on the price. Every single one. I'm not saying this to hurt anyone's feelings, I'm just trying to see if anyone here can come up with a credible justification for the idea that a bitcoin has value to anyone.

I'll repeat my earlier question: If clean freshwater was suddenly so abundant that it's price was zero (meaning no one would would trade anything else for it) would it still have value? Same question with gold. Now how about bitcoin?
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Kshartle » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:28 pm

Xan wrote: Why don't you admit that any rational proof of anything in fact requires faith in the premises, the axioms, the unprovable assumptions that you make before you start proving?
because I'm too dumb to understand them.

What premise, axiom, or unprovable assumption must I have strictly faith-based belief in order to have rationale proof that I exist?
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Xan » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:17 pm

Kshartle wrote:
Xan wrote: Why don't you admit that any rational proof of anything in fact requires faith in the premises, the axioms, the unprovable assumptions that you make before you start proving?
because I'm too dumb to understand them.

What premise, axiom, or unprovable assumption must I have strictly faith-based belief in order to have rationale proof that I exist?
It's pretty easy to find out.  Prove that you exist deductively.  Whatever your premise is (and your premise may very well be your conclusion) is likely to be taken on faith.

I'm not saying that it means you're wrong, nor that requiring axioms invalidates a proof.  But one does need to remember that one can only accept proofs as far as one accepts the axioms that they're based on.  Logic, math, and proofs definitely work (well, for the most part; keep in mind Godel's Incompleteness Theorems) in their spheres, but assuming that their spheres encompass the entirety of existence is quite a leap not supported by logic, but by faith.

So when you go to poop all over wise words like Karl Popper's without a second thought, and assume that you're absolutely right and that everyone else must agree with you, you might consider a dose of humility instead.
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Kshartle » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:29 pm

Xan wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
Xan wrote: Why don't you admit that any rational proof of anything in fact requires faith in the premises, the axioms, the unprovable assumptions that you make before you start proving?
because I'm too dumb to understand them.

What premise, axiom, or unprovable assumption must I have strictly faith-based belief in order to have rationale proof that I exist?
It's pretty easy to find out.  Prove that you exist deductively.  Whatever your premise is (and your premise may very well be your conclusion) is likely to be taken on faith.

I'm not saying that it means you're wrong, nor that requiring axioms invalidates a proof.  But one does need to remember that one can only accept proofs as far as one accepts the axioms that they're based on.  Logic, math, and proofs definitely work (well, for the most part; keep in mind Godel's Incompleteness Theorems) in their spheres, but assuming that their spheres encompass the entirety of existence is quite a leap not supported by logic, but by faith.

So when you go to poop all over wise words like Karl Popper's without a second thought, and assume that you're absolutely right and that everyone else must agree with you, you might consider a dose of humility instead.
Xan you said I need to have faith-based belief in certain premises, axioms, or unprovable assumptions to rationally prove I exist. What are they? If they are easy to find out can you help me? I don't know what these might be. They are evidently not as easy for me. I can't get past the logic that I have to exist in order to make the argument that I do or don't. Therefore I exist. I don't see where the faith-based belief comes into play.

If you can teach me something I'm happy to learn it. It doesn't need to descend into personal insults towards me.

I'm not trying to poop on his words (well maybe). I'm just taking a look objectively at them and I think he's mistaken. 
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Xan » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:50 pm

Kshartle wrote:I can't get past the logic that I have to exist in order to make the argument that I do or don't.
Well, I don't really know that that's the case, in a totally objective sense.  Sounds like a tautology to me.  Can you prove that?
Wikipedia wrote:Axioms define and delimit the realm of analysis; the relative truth of an axiom is taken for granted within the particular domain of analysis, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferring other relative truths. No explicit view regarding the absolute truth of axioms is ever taken in the context of modern mathematics, as such a thing is considered to be an irrelevant and impossible contradiction in terms.
You really can't deal with absolute truth at all via logic.  Logic is useful, in its domain, but it can't tell us ANYTHING about absolute truth.  To paraphrase Spock from Star Trek VI, "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Kshartle, not the end".
Kshartle wrote:If you can teach me something I'm happy to learn it. It doesn't need to descend into personal insults towards me.
I don't think I've taken it down to that level here...  If I have, I'm sorry.
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Kshartle » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:09 pm

Xan wrote:
Kshartle wrote:I can't get past the logic that I have to exist in order to make the argument that I do or don't.
Well, I don't really know that that's the case, in a totally objective sense.  Sounds like a tautology to me.  Can you prove that?
Wikipedia wrote:Axioms define and delimit the realm of analysis; the relative truth of an axiom is taken for granted within the particular domain of analysis, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferring other relative truths. No explicit view regarding the absolute truth of axioms is ever taken in the context of modern mathematics, as such a thing is considered to be an irrelevant and impossible contradiction in terms.
You really can't deal with absolute truth at all via logic.  Logic is useful, in its domain, but it can't tell us ANYTHING about absolute truth.  To paraphrase Spock from Star Trek VI, "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Kshartle, not the end".
Kshartle wrote:If you can teach me something I'm happy to learn it. It doesn't need to descend into personal insults towards me.
I don't think I've taken it down to that level here...  If I have, I'm sorry.
It sounded like you were saying I just assume I'm right, intolerant of others opinions and am arrogant. I feel like I downright beg people for their opinions. To the extent I ask them to maybe offer some support for them.....well this is a discussion forum. I offer support when I make a claim, it's never just based on my assumption of being right.

Logic can't tell us anything about absolute truth? Again I'm baffled here. The statement "There is no such thing as absolute truth" is really "There is an absolute truth and it's that there is no such thing as absolute truth.....errrr....except this statement". 

To me that's logic proving that absolute truth must exist. Again I can't think of any other axiom, premise or unprovable assumption that I must have faith-based belief in to prove any of that.

Now I'm not the smartest person in the world...but I'm decently smart, I'm sure you'd agree that you are. Between us we have yet to come up with any axioms, premises or unprovable assumptions that I must have faith-based belief in to prove any of that. How can you be so sure they exist or that we need them? And if we do in fact need them as you say.....isn't that also true and doesn't that prove that there must be some absolute truth?

Not trying to be mind-bending here, these are abstract concepts. I just would like to understand what you mean...perhaps with an example. I've provided a couple statements of logic-based beliefs and would like to see where faith is required.

And maybe get back to bitcoin. I think I've asked some good questions about them and I'd like to see if anyone has an answer. If a smart enough forum as this struggles with questions I came up with rather easily.....maybe the bitcoin value concept is shakier than some here think. Or maybe I'm dumb and everyone is too polite to point that out. Please point it out.
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Xan » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:17 pm

Oh I'm not arguing against absolute truth.  I'm just saying that you can't prove it (or really even probe it) with logic.

You're asking for an example of a faith-based assumption you're making with your attempts to use logic to prove absolute truths.  Basically, you're assuming your conclusions when you do this.  I'll try to be more specific.  You're assuming that the world is ruled by your logic.  It really may not be.  Logic is an invention of man, no?  Even if it were true that logic rules the world, somebody could disagree, and you couldn't prove him wrong.  You'd have to use logic to prove that logic was true, which a) isn't possible, and b) is circular anyway.  You have faith in logic, which again, I'm not saying is wrong, but you should know its limitations.
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Kshartle » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:07 pm

Xan wrote: Oh I'm not arguing against absolute truth.  I'm just saying that you can't prove it (or really even probe it) with logic.

You're asking for an example of a faith-based assumption you're making with your attempts to use logic to prove absolute truths.  Basically, you're assuming your conclusions when you do this.  I'll try to be more specific.  You're assuming that the world is ruled by your logic.  It really may not be.  Logic is an invention of man, no?  Even if it were true that logic rules the world, somebody could disagree, and you couldn't prove him wrong.  You'd have to use logic to prove that logic was true, which a) isn't possible, and b) is circular anyway.  You have faith in logic, which again, I'm not saying is wrong, but you should know its limitations.
What are the limitations?

I think we're in an endless loop where you will say I have faith in logic and I will reply that logic is the opposite of faith. To claim there are events or things that cannot be explained by logic is the actual faith-based belief. It is a requirement to call logic faith based to support faith based beliefs.

You're saying even if everything could be explained logically (Even if it were true that logic rules the world), I still wouldn't be able to convince someone of it? This is again a self-detonating sentence and purely faith-based. You have faith in the idea that what is true can't always be proven logically.

I think we're stuck in a loop and I'm ok with dropping it if you are. You are welcome to the last word. Perhaps we can pick it up with the help of others in another more appropriate thread.

Anyone who came here for bitcoin discussion please scroll up about a dozen and start from there :)
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Xan » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:10 pm

Kshartle wrote:You have faith in the idea that what is true can't always be proven logically.
So do you, since that's the logical conclusion of logic itself.  See the Incompleteness Theorems.
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by MediumTex » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:07 pm

Wait a second, how did the absolute truth discussion spill over into the Bitcoin thread?
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Xan » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:13 pm

I was wondering that too!  I think it started with a discussion about the "objective" value of a Bitcoin.
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by l82start » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:24 pm

An inference is deductively valid if and only if there is no possible situation in which all the premises are true but the conclusion false. An inductive argument can be neither valid nor invalid; its premises give only some degree of probability, but not certainty, to its conclusion.

Inference is the act or process of deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true

Logic is generally considered formal when it analyzes and represents the form of any valid argument type. The form of an argument is displayed by representing its sentences in the formal grammar and symbolism of a logical language to make its content usable in formal inference
.

a bit of cut and paste to help along the understanding of logic.

on the question of bit coin the argument seems to me to be more a question of semantics than logic or maybe a question of different semantics resulting in different logical conclusions.


1:  a fair return or equivalent in goods, services, or money for something exchanged
2:  the monetary worth of something :  market price
3:  relative worth, utility, or importance
7:  something (as a principle or quality) intrinsically valuable or desirable

according to kshartle a thing does not have value unless # 7 is met  "if bit coin has no #7 then bit coin has no value"  gold has #7 in some small measure in electronics and as jewelry or decoration. money has #7 for its ability to pay taxes (therefore they have value). bit coin only has value in #1, 2  and 3...... according to the bit coin enthusiasts those three are enough to justify the use of the word value when describing bit coins "if bit coin has #1, 2, 3 then bit coin has value. ....  both logically sound*,  but using different requirements or definitions for the application of the term value...

can the definition "all things that do not have #7 do not have value" be logically proven? i am not sure since #1, 2 , 3 are also part of the common definition of value..
  but the idea that bit coin has no # 7 is reasonable enough and kshartle has argued and nobody has found any other uses for bit coin that meet that definition that don't involve including #1, 2, 3 as a subset of #7...

*("i think" its been a long time since i did formal logic)
Last edited by l82start on Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by smurff » Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:34 am

Bitcoin is in a bubble.  It reminds me of the dot-com days, late 1990s. My only question is when will the bubble pop, and what will bring it (the pop) about.

There.  I said it.

Now that I've said it, being in a bubble does not mean bitcoin will not survive.  It could be like Amazon.com--it crashed along with the dot coms, but recovered and flourished even more with most of the riff raff cleared away and excess valuations evaporated.

Or maybe bitcoin will be more like tulips?
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by MediumTex » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:07 pm

smurff wrote: Bitcoin is in a bubble.  It reminds me of the dot-com days, late 1990s. My only question is when will the bubble pop, and what will bring it (the pop) about.

There.  I said it.

Now that I've said it, being in a bubble does not mean bitcoin will not survive.  It could be like Amazon.com--it crashed along with the dot coms, but recovered and flourished even more with most of the riff raff cleared away and excess valuations evaporated.

Or maybe bitcoin will be more like tulips?
A couple of days ago the security guard in my building asked me if I had heard about Bitcoin.

He seemed really excited about its potential.
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by smurff » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:55 am

MediumTex wrote: A couple of days ago the security guard in my building asked me if I had heard about Bitcoin.

He seemed really excited about its potential.
After the security guard, you only need two more to yield a warning of something big and terrible about to happen with Bitcoin.  It goes according to the Law of Three, so when your taxi driver and your barber talk to you about Bitcoin, the pop of the bubble is imminent. 
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by fishdrzig » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:58 pm

Marc

Are you still doing the giveaway if we have a wallet?
My 16 year old son has been bugging me about starting a Bitcoin wallet and I was thinking it may be a good experience for him to follow this.  I just read this thread and thought  "boy that is nice of this guy to do this" and I could tell my son to set one up.  Just asking - not beggin' - yet.

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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Kshartle » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:26 am

Bitcoin has fallen about 60% from the highs a couple weeks ago. Anyone who feels confident about bitcoin's future should be loading up. Is anyone doing here doing that? No judgment here (I'm about 30% in gold mining stocks now so.....imagine that beating). I'm just curious if people think it's riskier now than they did at higher prices.
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by smurff » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:05 am

I guess MediumTex' s barber and taxi driver had that chat after all:


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/busin ... .html?_r=0
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Marc De Mesel » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:03 pm

fishdrzig wrote: Marc

Are you still doing the giveaway if we have a wallet?
My 16 year old son has been bugging me about starting a Bitcoin wallet and I was thinking it may be a good experience for him to follow this.  I just read this thread and thought  "boy that is nice of this guy to do this" and I could tell my son to set one up.  Just asking - not beggin' - yet.

Steve
Sure Steve, happy to get your son started :) What's his btc address?

I'm feeling less rich now that bitcoin is tumbling so the give away is coming to a close.

Thank you all for participating, it's been great fun and always remember the fundamental value of bitcoin is what no other can do: buy outlawed goods online: only with bitcoin! Hold tight!


edit: and ofcourse the supply is more limited than gold and you can hold it yourself and hide it better than gold so some will prefer to use it as a store of value as well, even when outlawed. Buy and hooooold!!! :D

This is not investment advice, just my opinion, every investment has risk, especially those that are printed or produced in excess, etc etc
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Marc De Mesel » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:26 pm

Kshartle wrote: Bitcoin has fallen about 60% from the highs a couple weeks ago. Anyone who feels confident about bitcoin's future should be loading up. Is anyone doing here doing that? No judgment here (I'm about 30% in gold mining stocks now so.....imagine that beating). I'm just curious if people think it's riskier now than they did at higher prices.
I am not buying more, but I am also not selling more. Sold some around $130, some around $1000 and I think from now on I will not sell any anymore but just start buying stuff with it when I feel rich again. You want business? I pay in bitcoin, you don't like? Next. Maybe I'll even do it for other assets I want to buy.


Was planning to buy car with bitcoin but since btc value is down by half I cancelled it, when price is up I might start spending again. I think the same is true for many other bitcoin rich people. This is an interesting phenomenon that keeps bitcoin price more balanced.
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Marc De Mesel » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:38 pm

MediumTex wrote: A couple of days ago the security guard in my building asked me if I had heard about Bitcoin.

He seemed really excited about its potential.
lol  :D

Point taken, it certainly indicates intermediary top, but if u think dumb money made money already in bitcoin u are mistaken I think. Market cap is also just percentage points of previous bubbles in real estate, gold or dotcom stocks.

This indicates we are not in a bubble yet. Strong growth and the first laymen talking about something is not enough evidence for a bubble. This is the internet 1996. Unless the West illegalizes bitcoin, chances are very high that bitcoin will be valued MUCH higher within just a few years.

Also, where is your idealism people? Is bitcoin not a great improvement over fiat?
Last edited by Marc De Mesel on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by HB Reader » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:09 pm

Kshartle wrote: Bitcoin has fallen about 60% from the highs a couple weeks ago. Anyone who feels confident about bitcoin's future should be loading up. Is anyone doing here doing that? No judgment here (I'm about 30% in gold mining stocks now so.....imagine that beating). I'm just curious if people think it's riskier now than they did at higher prices.
If the price stabilizes somewhat in a trading band (say 20-25%) for a couple of months comfortably north of its spring highs (around $265) -- i.e., similar to how it has reacted after previous run ups and crashes -- I'll consider starting to purchase a small amount more each month.  I think there is a fair chance that could happen.  In other words, I will pay more attention to the trading action and volume than a particular price.  I think a period of relative stability would be a positive sign for the long term.

But who knows?  If the price just plummets below the spring highs or seems to trend continually down from here, I'll just be glad for the profits I've taken thus far, and start folding up the tent by selling whatever I have left in a few tranches.  I've been lucky enough to be playing with the house's money since the price went above $70.     
       
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Re: Bitcoin giveaway! :)

Post by Kshartle » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:17 pm

Marc wrote: Also, where is your idealism people? Is bitcoin not a great improvement over fiat?
:) 

I've said this old saying before:

Gold is the money of kings
Silver is the money of citizens
Barter is the money of the poor
Fiat is the money of slaves

That being said, I think bitcoin will fail because the premise is faulty. It's trying to replace fiat with something that has no useful purpose (I'll stay away from the V word from here on out). Once bitcoin flops (again I'm making a prediction) it will be interesting to see if gold or the dollar get credit for the win. I suspect it will be the dollar.

Marc I am with you in spirit. I look forward to the day when humans stop using fiat money but I can't trade something valuable for something that...well....you know.  :-X
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