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Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:27 am
by ochotona
That is true, they do have an HDHP. But, if the employer does not do the HSA funding by a payroll deduction, you don't get that contribution shielded from tax. If I decide not to use the FSA then I can make my own HSA contributions, but then HSA is like a Roth IRA, I don't get all of the tax benefits.

I hope I'm wrong. I have not seen the formal enrollment materials yet, I've had a verbal offer. I will find out next week.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:34 am
by sophie
That is annoying, but the tax benefit is small potatoes. You can partially make up for it by making your full contribution on January 1, but don't let this dissuade you from the HDHP.

Just to make sure I'm still picking the right health plan, I made myself a little excel calculator and plugged in numbers for premiums, deductions, expenses, copays, and of course, the tax benefit of the HSA contribution. The difference was astounding, and it didn't even account for the future benefits of the HSA. No matter how much I fiddled with potential expenses, the HDHP cost me thousands less than the non-HDHP plans. Going with a non-HDHP plan at my employer is seriously failing the IQ test. You might try something similar with your plan options.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:49 am
by ochotona
It's a small firm I'm going to, and I can talk to the owner about it, I'm sure he wants to get wealthier also.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:50 pm
by foglifter
ochotona wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:49 am
It's a small firm I'm going to, and I can talk to the owner about it, I'm sure he wants to get wealthier also.
Sophie is right, I came to the same conclusions over and over again. I'm in a small firm as well and they even asked me to do a presentation on HSAs since I was the only one with a substantial experience using HSA. We don't have employer match but still HDHP plan works the best for almost anyone. People who used traditional low deductible plans for years sometimes have hard time to get used to higher deductibles, although they are shelling out tons of money in premiums - regardless of the amount of healthcare they use in a year.

I'd say it might be even easier to champion things like HSA or 401k at a small firm. I successfully did the latter a couple years ago by convincing my boss to move our retirement plan from the lousy plan offered by our benefits provider to Employee Fiduciary.

I think it might be a matter of getting your boss better educated on the options available, I doubt there is any roadblock to adding HSA-qualified high-deductible plan into your medical insurance benefits. My daughter works as an underwriter for a major medical insurance company and as employees they are offered only HDHP plans.

Regarding funding your HSA from the bank account vs. payroll contributions: if your AGI is less than the IRS threshold for social security contributions you miss out on FICA tax deduction (SS and Medicare). However if you AGI exceeds the threshold by at least the annual HSA contribution limit you only lose tax deduction on 1.45% Medicare contribution (which has no threshold) - this could be a wash or you might even come ahead if your employer-provided HSA is a 0-earning cash account with no investment options (you could contribute a lump sum in January in your Lively HSA and invest the whole amount at TDA). You need to assess the costs as well - my employer-provided HSA charges me $2.50 monthly fee, but Lively charges the same for TDA brokerage.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:09 pm
by ochotona
So if I have an HDHP, can't I contribute to my Lively HSA by myself, report on Form 8889, enter amount on Form 1040 Line 25, and have my AGI reduced by $8000 for 2019? I am old enough to do the catch-up.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:30 pm
by Xan
ochotona wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:09 pm
So if I have an HDHP, can't I contribute to my Lively HSA by myself, report on Form 8889, enter amount on Form 1040 Line 25, and have my AGI reduced by $8000 for 2019? I am old enough to do the catch-up.
That's how I've always done it. I didn't know there was another way, actually.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:35 pm
by ochotona
Xan wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:30 pm
ochotona wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:09 pm
So if I have an HDHP, can't I contribute to my Lively HSA by myself, report on Form 8889, enter amount on Form 1040 Line 25, and have my AGI reduced by $8000 for 2019? I am old enough to do the catch-up.
That's how I've always done it. I didn't know there was another way, actually.
Good. The other way is employer payroll deduction, which then reduces the FICA bite. If my health plan is as below, then I'll refuse the FSA, and do my own HSA:

2019:

HDHP Minimum Deductibles. The 2019 minimum annual deductible is $2,700 for family HDHP coverage.

HDHP Out-of-Pocket Maximums. The 2019 limit on out-of-pocket expenses (including items such as deductibles, copayments, and coinsurance, but not premiums) is $13,500 for family HDHP coverage.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:39 am
by sophie
That's exactly right, ocho.

Since you already have a Lively HSA, this is very easy for you. Sounds like you might benefit from an employer-provided HSA, but I'm sure that's not free. Between the issues that foglifter described and the costs to your employer which would increase your overhead and effectively reduce your pay, an employer-sponsored HSA may not be in your best interests.

Also FSAs are evil. You have to guess your medical expenses in advance, and if you overestimate, you could stand to lose the balance at the end of the year.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:46 pm
by foglifter
It's important to remember that, like with IRAs, one can have multiple HSA accounts. I consider my Lively HSA as my "main" account and I only use the employer-provided HSA as a temporary location to move payroll contributions in a tax-friendly manner. The money in the employer account usually earns zilch, so I do partial transfers to Lively twice a year.

Another example when an employer HSA might make sense (even with fees): receiving employer contributions. Starting next year my new-old employer (we've just merged) will contribute 2K annually into the HSA (for family coverage). The only way to get these contributions is the employer HSA.

I heard that some employers offer an option to direct pre-tax payroll contributions into a non-employer-provided account, however it's rare. It would be awesome to contribute to Lively directly, but my employer said they could do that only as post-tax deductions (which defeats the key point of using an employer HSA).

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:22 am
by ochotona
EARTH SHATTERING NEWS

Fidelity has an HSA offering. I just talked to them. No account maintenance fees of any kind. I think this will put Lively out of business.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:50 am
by ochotona
MangoMan wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:28 am
ochotona wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:22 am
EARTH SHATTERING NEWS

Fidelity has an HSA offering. I just talked to them. No account maintenance fees of any kind. I think this will put Lively out of business.
Doubtful. Lively was such a huge improvement over all of the previous offerings, yet none of them have gone out of business.

It's just like all the mutual funds with high fees. There will always be people willing (or forced) to pay the higher fees for some inexplicable reason.
Understood, but Lively is a new VC funded start-up, they might just melt under the heat. I want to consolidate to Fidelity, personally, Lively is my only use of TD Ameritrade.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:57 pm
by foglifter
There's a long thread on Fidelity HSA on BH forum:
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewto ... &start=500

Sounds like the exodus from Lively, HSA Bank and other custodians is under way. Annoying part is lack of consistency in the responses people receive from different Fido reps regarding the ability of in-kind transfers from TDA and TDA account closure fee reimbursement. I'm waiting for 1-year anniversary of my Lively account to start the transfer process.

I think Lively could still compete for employer-sponsored accounts.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:35 pm
by foglifter
MangoMan wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:12 pm
foglifter wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:57 pm
I'm waiting for 1-year anniversary of my Lively account to start the transfer process.
Is there any particular reason for the wait?
Lively charges $25 closing fee if the account was opened less than a year ago.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:23 pm
by foglifter
MangoMan wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:28 pm
foglifter wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:35 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:12 pm


Is there any particular reason for the wait?
Lively charges $25 closing fee if the account was opened less than a year ago.
Interesting, thanks for the heads up. That is not listed in their fee schedule as far as I could tell. I guess I will have to wait until April as well.
If you go to Documents > Choice Financial Terms & Conditions and hit Download you'll see the following on page 15 of the PDF:
Effect of closing an account
An early closure fee of $25 will be assessed if your account is closed in the first 12 months.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:04 am
by sophie
Wow, this is important to look into. A quick check of the website reveals two things: 1) there's a fee of $12/quarter and not clear whether this applies to individual accounts, and 2) investments are limited to a list of Fidelity funds that isn't posted yet. About the fees, there's something about the fee being waived if you have >$250K assets at Fidelity.

I think I'll wait and see what happens here before jumping in. I'm curious how Lively will respond. They benefited from giving people a better deal than HSA Bank, and they must have known it was only a matter of time before someone else came along with an even better deal.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:04 pm
by foglifter
sophie wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:04 am
Wow, this is important to look into. A quick check of the website reveals two things: 1) there's a fee of $12/quarter and not clear whether this applies to individual accounts,
The fee only applies to employer-sponsored accounts:

If you have a Fidelity HSA through your employer, your account may be charged an administrative fee of up to $12 per quarter ($48 annually), unless it’s paid by your employer.

sophie wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:04 am
2) investments are limited to a list of Fidelity funds that isn't posted yet. About the fees, there's something about the fee being waived if you have >$250K assets at Fidelity.
There is no account minimums to avoid fees after Fidelity's recent big move when they slashed fees on index funds, removed minimum balance requirements and added 4 zero-fee funds. I spoke to a rep recently and he confirmed you can invest in pretty much anything. In this regard Fidelity HSA is similar to their regular taxable brokerage or IRA account.

Image

The DIY option on the right links to the following page:

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Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:51 am
by sophie
MangoMan wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:51 pm
sophie wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:04 am
I'm curious how Lively will respond. They benefited from giving people a better deal than HSA Bank, and they must have known it was only a matter of time before someone else came along with an even better deal.
I did an online chat with one of Lively's reps yesterday, asking if they would waive the $2.50/month investment fee to keep my business now that Fido was offering it free (and with a better choice of commission-free offerings, IMO). Their answer was that they have no plans to drop the fee. I imagine they may be paying TDA for the privilege of hosting smaller accounts, or just see it as an easy profit center.
For some reason I thought they'd be smarter than that. But, outside of that fee I don't know how they can make money, unless they can convince TDA to pay them for managing the platform. Fidelity entering this space is a game-changer, for sure.

Thanks for the warning about the 1 year fee guys. I get to wait until next April before jumping to Fidelity.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:11 am
by ochotona
LIVELY FIGHTS BACK

HSA now no-fee for individuals and families

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... Fee-Health

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:25 am
by foglifter
ochotona wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:11 am
LIVELY FIGHTS BACK

HSA now no-fee for individuals and families

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... Fee-Health
Yay! Thanks ochotona! I just received an email from Lively. They surely picked the right time go give it a good publicity. I still plan to open a Fidelity HSA to funnel future contributions from my employer-based UMB account, but now I won't touch my Lively TDA account and let it ride. Of course everybody understands that Lively probably will use some of that new round of VC money to pay their expenses, let's hope they will be able to grow their employer-focused business.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:44 am
by Xan
Not at all scolding here, but it's worth noticing that the Lively exit fee kept many of you with them long enough for them to respond. In retrospect, you may be glad that fee exists, and also by staying you're rewarding them from having the fee, even if you wish they didn't.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:18 pm
by ochotona
Xan wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:44 am
Not at all scolding here, but it's worth noticing that the Lively exit fee kept many of you with them long enough for them to respond. In retrospect, you may be glad that fee exists, and also by staying you're rewarding them from having the fee, even if you wish they didn't.
Whenever I can delete a task off of my task list, that's worth money too me also.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:27 am
by sophie
Smart move, Lively.

Unfortunately this doesn't remove all the fees. TDA is lacking in commission free funds, so you either pay higher expense ratios or commission fees to buy/sell. Fidelity wins on that.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:25 am
by ochotona
I'm finding I really like Securities Alerts feature in TD, it's better than Schwab, way better than Fidelity. I'd miss it if I left Lively.

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:47 pm
by ochotona
MangoMan wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:07 pm
ochotona wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:25 am
I'm finding I really like Securities Alerts feature in TD, it's better than Schwab, way better than Fidelity. I'd miss it if I left Lively.
You could always open a small taxable account to keep the alerts flowing.
Ha ha ha like with $10 in it!

Re: The Lively HSA

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:48 am
by Kriegsspiel
It looks like the Fidelity HSA is the best one right now, with no account fees and no commission fees. Well, none for the ETFs I am looking at. Any disagreement?