Starting in Europe, questions

General Discussion on the Permanent Portfolio Strategy

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europeanwizard
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Re: Starting in Europe, questions

Post by europeanwizard »

koekebakker wrote:I'll try to answer your questions.
Excellent answers, thanks!

As for stocks, based on TER I'm looking at iShares Core Euro STOXX 50. It's decently sized, has full physical replication, and crazy low TER. I'd like to compare that to something like Think European Equity. This is by far the smallest fund, but its domicile is in the Netherlands. I'm still reading up on the possible tax advantages.

For now, I'd like to focus to European stocks, based on the recommendations of the book.

As for the gold and bonds part, still looking into that.
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frugal
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Re: Starting in Europe, questions

Post by frugal »

europeanwizard wrote:
koekebakker wrote:I'll try to answer your questions.
Excellent answers, thanks!

As for stocks, based on TER I'm looking at iShares Core Euro STOXX 50. It's decently sized, has full physical replication, and crazy low TER. I'd like to compare that to something like Think European Equity. This is by far the smallest fund, but its domicile is in the Netherlands. I'm still reading up on the possible tax advantages.

For now, I'd like to focus to European stocks, based on the recommendations of the book.

As for the gold and bonds part, still looking into that.
hi

try to mix different ETFs to each catergory


more diversification!
O0
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europeanwizard
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Re: Starting in Europe, questions

Post by europeanwizard »

frugal wrote:try to mix different ETFs to each catergory
Almost would've forgotten that, I will. Still have to do the calculations on the Dutch dividend taxes.

Sidenote; I was complaining to my SO over dinner, and she asked why I didn't simply pass it on to a financial advisor and be done with it. Told her that there's a trade off, and I'd rather do it myself. When I explained, I thought: why was I bitching again?!
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frugal
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Re: Starting in Europe, questions

Post by frugal »

europeanwizard wrote:
frugal wrote:try to mix different ETFs to each catergory
Almost would've forgotten that, I will. Still have to do the calculations on the Dutch dividend taxes.

Sidenote; I was complaining to my SO over dinner, and she asked why I didn't simply pass it on to a financial advisor and be done with it. Told her that there's a trade off, and I'd rather do it myself. When I explained, I thought: why was I bitching again?!
Hi

which ETF's are you selecting for each asset?

Regards
koekebakker
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Re: Starting in Europe, questions

Post by koekebakker »

Everything is a trade-off :)

I believe that keeping it simple is very important for being able to stay the course long-term.
You can spend many, many hours thinking/worrying about which ETF's to choose, where to keep them etc etc. In the end it probably won't matter much, if at all. It's better to spend your energy on earning/saving as much as you can because that WILL make a huge difference.

The eurostoxx 50 etf is a fine ETF. Some will say that 50 eurozone stocks is not enough, some will say it is. The Permanent Portfolio books suggests European stocks but I don't think they gave the Eurozone situation that much thought to be honest.
A european stock etf will work fine as well, as will a mix between eurozone and global stocks.
Pick the one that makes you feel most comfortable, and understand that no-one knows which stock markets will perform best in the future. I wouldn't worry about holding multiple ETF's in multiple regions etc, that just makes things more complicated imo.

Regarding the Dutch dividend situation. If Think ETF's manages to give you 100% of dividends, this saves you about 0.3% a year for a global stock etf and 0.15% for eurozone stock etf. Calculation: dividend yield * witholding percentage. The witholding percentage is lower for eurozone stocks, higher for US/emerging markets stocks.
This is not the full story though. Think ETF's are mostly equal weighted instead of cap weighted which means the ETF's will have internal transaction costs when the ETF rebalances. Another thing to consider: Ishares/Vanguard try to lower the TER by doing some securities lending.
So in the end I don't think the difference will be huge.

Deciding which bonds to use is usually the hardest part in a Eurozone PP. There is a huge difference between bonds from Northern countries and Southern countries. For a Dutch/German person it's a bit easier as you can just buy long-term treasuries of your own government. No need to hold any foreign bonds. The yield is absolutely horrible though... Last time I checked it was something like 1% which is lower than inflation and only slightly higher that a one-year CD (spaardeposito). Can't really recommend anyone to buy these bonds at these rates.

For me this was one of the main reasons to abandon the Permanent Portfolio and switch to just global stocks and high-quality short-term fixed income with only a little bit of gold. To me this felt safer and simpler, to others it might feel riskier.
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Re: Starting in Europe, questions

Post by frugal »

koekebakker wrote:Everything is a trade-off :)

I believe that keeping it simple is very important for being able to stay the course long-term.
You can spend many, many hours thinking/worrying about which ETF's to choose, where to keep them etc etc. In the end it probably won't matter much, if at all. It's better to spend your energy on earning/saving as much as you can because that WILL make a huge difference.

The eurostoxx 50 etf is a fine ETF. Some will say that 50 eurozone stocks is not enough, some will say it is. The Permanent Portfolio books suggests European stocks but I don't think they gave the Eurozone situation that much thought to be honest.
A european stock etf will work fine as well, as will a mix between eurozone and global stocks.
Pick the one that makes you feel most comfortable, and understand that no-one knows which stock markets will perform best in the future. I wouldn't worry about holding multiple ETF's in multiple regions etc, that just makes things more complicated imo.

Regarding the Dutch dividend situation. If Think ETF's manages to give you 100% of dividends, this saves you about 0.3% a year for a global stock etf and 0.15% for eurozone stock etf. Calculation: dividend yield * witholding percentage. The witholding percentage is lower for eurozone stocks, higher for US/emerging markets stocks.
This is not the full story though. Think ETF's are mostly equal weighted instead of cap weighted which means the ETF's will have internal transaction costs when the ETF rebalances. Another thing to consider: Ishares/Vanguard try to lower the TER by doing some securities lending.
So in the end I don't think the difference will be huge.

Deciding which bonds to use is usually the hardest part in a Eurozone PP. There is a huge difference between bonds from Northern countries and Southern countries. For a Dutch/German person it's a bit easier as you can just buy long-term treasuries of your own government. No need to hold any foreign bonds. The yield is absolutely horrible though... Last time I checked it was something like 1% which is lower than inflation and only slightly higher that a one-year CD (spaardeposito). Can't really recommend anyone to buy these bonds at these rates.

For me this was one of the main reasons to abandon the Permanent Portfolio and switch to just global stocks and high-quality short-term fixed income with only a little bit of gold. To me this felt safer and simpler, to others it might feel riskier.
nice!

Can you update us with your actual portfolio ?

Thank you
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europeanwizard
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Re: Starting in Europe, questions

Post by europeanwizard »

Got the stocks and gold part decided.

For now, I'll put 6k in each 25%. For stocks, I'll put 3k in iShares Core EURO STOXX 50 (ticker CSX5), which is accumulating. The other 3k, I'll put in Think European Equity (ticker TEET which I'm going to proncounce exactly the way I like it). That last one is a very small fund but its domicile is here in NL. I'll just try and see how that works with taxes and stuff.

The gold part, for now I'll just pick ETFS Physical Gold (symbol PHAU). It's simply the most easy way. When I rebalance in a couple of months, I may look into the tips from the book around holding gold.

The only thing I haven't decided, is bonds. Will probably open a separate topic for that.
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Re: Starting in Europe, questions

Post by Bjorgen »

I started my PP on June 14th and I used the same ETF allocation as described here:
http://www.carterapermanente.es/cartera ... -con-etfs/

Tickers:
- ZPRE
- EL4V
- EXVM
- 4GLD
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