Physical gold or ETF for my IRA?

General Discussion on the Permanent Portfolio Strategy

Moderator: Global Moderator

Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: Physical gold or ETF for my IRA?

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:59 pm

CT-Scott wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:49 pm
Actually, I guess I'm still confused...

If I've got the option to own paper gold in my 401k account (for sake of argument, let's say specifically the IAU fund), I should be able to trade my IAU for some money market fund later *inside* of my 401k, without any tax implications. So, when I want to *actually* pull some money out of my 401k (when I'm retired) I could just "sell" some of my IAU shares inside of my 401k account, which then becomes money market money inside my 401k. And *then* I withdraw some of that money market money.

So I'm missing ochotona's comment that holding gold inside of a traditional IRA (or 401k) converts cap gains to ordinary income, and thus a bad idea to hold paper gold inside one of these types of accounts.

What am I missing?
It's not holding gold in an IRA that converts capital gains to ordinary income.
It's having any gains in an IRA.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: FYI - Physical gold or ETF

Post by vnatale » Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:53 pm

gap wrote:
Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:47 pm
From Barrons - FYI
Investors are furious that they can't get back the gold and silver they stashed with the failed brokerage.
It's one thing for $1.2 billion to vanish into thin air through a series of complex trades, the well-publicized phenomenon at bankrupt MF Global. It's something else for a bar of silver stashed in a vault to instantly shrink in size by more than 25%.
That, in essence, is what's happening to investors whose bars of silver and gold were held through accounts with MF Global.
The trustee overseeing the liquidation of the failed brokerage has proposed dumping all remaining customer assets—gold, silver, cash, options, futures and commodities—into a single pool that would pay customers only 72% of the value of their holdings. In other words, while traders already may have paid the full price for delivery of specific bars of gold or silver—and hold "warehouse receipts" to prove it—they'll have to forfeit 28% of the value.
.....
Of the 28% haircut, attorney and liquidation trustee James Giddens has frozen all asset classes, meaning that traders have sat helplessly as silver prices have dropped 31% since late August, and gold has fallen 16%. To boot, the traders are still being assessed fees for storage of the commodities.

Could this happen with any of the current ways of holding gold which are advocated here?

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Physical gold or ETF for my IRA?

Post by vnatale » Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:33 pm

blackomen wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:32 pm

If your only option with physical gold is to buy it and store it at home: forget it.  Buy GLD instead.  You're more likely to lose your physical gold through theft than losing your GLD investment through its collapse.

If you can afford the overhead of a vault (preferably in Switzerland), then it may be a better option than GLD or keeping physical gold at home.


Agree or disagree that storing gold at home is more risky than buying GLD (or other similar paper form)?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Physical gold or ETF for my IRA?

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:00 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:33 pm
Agree or disagree that storing gold at home is more risky than buying GLD (or other similar paper form)?
Vinny,
You're a poser.

Buy a gold coin.
Buy an ETF.

Sit on it for a bit and then make a decision.

Jeezus christ, you're acting like a 15 year old girl.
User avatar
Smith1776
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: Physical gold or ETF for my IRA?

Post by Smith1776 » Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:27 pm

Neither is more or less risky in principle, you are simply exposing yourself to different TYPES of risk in either case.

The way forward out of this dilemma is the same solution as always: diversification. More specifically, one should engage BOTH solutions to maximize investment prudence.
🛞 The All-Terrain Portfolio 🛞
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Physical gold or ETF for my IRA?

Post by vnatale » Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:06 pm

Smith1776 wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:27 pm

Neither is more or less risky in principle, you are simply exposing yourself to different TYPES of risk in either case.

The way forward out of this dilemma is the same solution as always: diversification. More specifically, one should engage BOTH solutions to maximize investment prudence.


I agree.

As I keep reading through all the voluminous notes I have taken from many posts in this forum I'm almost certain that I will definitely own both physical and paper. And, even some allocated.

The next question will be what percentage of my gold portion will go to each.

Finally, of all that gold how it gets distributed among all my various accounts:

Non-retirement

Retirement - Roth IRA's and 401(k)'s, Traditional IRA's and 401(k)'s, Simple IRA's and any other different taxed retirement account not coming to me at this moment.

The 25% stock portion is easiest - most likely all Vanguard Total Stock Market

The 25% cash easiest - most likely all bought T-bills

The 25% long-term bonds - most likely individual bonds rather than a bond EFT or fund.

The 25% gold is by far the most complicated decision - especially the physical part. How much to keep at home, in safety deposit boxes, how many banks.


I'm slowly getting back to figuring out my personal implementation of the Permanent Portfolio once I started looking at my notes for the first time since May 2020.

But in the end, I do believe that I'm not going to take the simple route but a more complex one which has a heavy emphasis on diversification.

Once I spend so much time on something like this I like to get it all done at once and not have to go back and fill in pieces and make revisions.

I will come up with my grand plan and execute it and that will be it....aside from rebalancing as necessary.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Physical gold or ETF for my IRA?

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:39 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:06 pm
Smith1776 wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:27 pm
Neither is more or less risky in principle, you are simply exposing yourself to different TYPES of risk in either case.

The way forward out of this dilemma is the same solution as always: diversification. More specifically, one should engage BOTH solutions to maximize investment prudence.
I agree.

As I keep reading through all the voluminous notes I have taken from many posts in this forum I'm almost certain that I will definitely own both physical and paper. And, even some allocated.

The next question will be what percentage of my gold portion will go to each.

Finally, of all that gold how it gets distributed among all my various accounts:

Non-retirement

Retirement - Roth IRA's and 401(k)'s, Traditional IRA's and 401(k)'s, Simple IRA's and any other different taxed retirement account not coming to me at this moment.

The 25% stock portion is easiest - most likely all Vanguard Total Stock Market

The 25% cash easiest - most likely all bought T-bills

The 25% long-term bonds - most likely individual bonds rather than a bond EFT or fund.

The 25% gold is by far the most complicated decision - especially the physical part. How much to keep at home, in safety deposit boxes, how many banks.


I'm slowly getting back to figuring out my personal implementation of the Permanent Portfolio once I started looking at my notes for the first time since May 2020.

But in the end, I do believe that I'm not going to take the simple route but a more complex one which has a heavy emphasis on diversification.

Once I spend so much time on something like this I like to get it all done at once and not have to go back and fill in pieces and make revisions.

I will come up with my grand plan and execute it and that will be it....aside from rebalancing as necessary.

Xan, I am dying to make some money here.
Is there any way for me to bet that Vinny will sit on his ass and do nothing for the next six months?

I'd be happy to cut you in at 20%.
User avatar
ozzy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:34 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida
Contact:

Re: Physical gold or ETF for my IRA?

Post by ozzy » Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:52 am

I created this post 10 years ago. I ended up owning both physical gold and ETF (IAU).

Vinny - buy a few buffalo coins, trust me, it's a great feeling.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Physical gold or ETF for my IRA?

Post by Xan » Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:51 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:39 pm
Xan, I am dying to make some money here.
Is there any way for me to bet that Vinny will sit on his ass and do nothing for the next six months?

I'd be happy to cut you in at 20%.
I think frugal is still the ass-sitting champion.

And Mark, I'm afraid the problem is that nobody will take the other side of your bet!
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Physical gold or ETF for my IRA?

Post by vnatale » Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:35 am

ozzy wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:52 am

I created this post 10 years ago. I ended up owning both physical gold and ETF (IAU).

Vinny - buy a few buffalo coins, trust me, it's a great feeling.


I have been known for making the simple complex so I think for when I finally buy my gold coin allocation that I will be many different types of coins...to cover the diversification angle.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Physical gold or ETF for my IRA?

Post by vnatale » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:39 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:27 pm



An exception to my preference for safe deposit boxes would be for persons who are fortunate enough to be among the much maligned 1%.  If your investments are so large that you could not conveniently store your physical gold in two safe deposit boxes then it's probably time to start thinking about an allocated account in a bullion vault.  The Perth Mint strikes me as a good place for HNWIs to stash their gold.  Switzerland is good, but it is a bit pricey to bank there and most Swiss banks don't want much to do with Americans these days.  Even those that will take our business normally won't let you through the door unless you're ready to deposit seven figures with them. 

A final word on Swiss banks.  Yes, I think they are still probably the safest place to put money and store gold.  But their vaunted reputation for bank secrecy is pretty much dead.  Recent events have demonstrated quite clearly that if the US Treasury really tightens the screws on them, they will cave.


I received quotes from my bank for four different sized safety deposit boxes.

When you stated above "two safe deposit boxes"...what were the size of those boxes?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Post Reply