I'M OUT!

General Discussion on the Permanent Portfolio Strategy

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vnatale
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by vnatale » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:19 am

Kevin K. wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:17 am

Maddy wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:00 pm

For over a year now, I've been asking the question, "Could Harry have anticipated this?" I'm referring primarily to the extraordinarily reckless manner in which the dollar's reserve status has been abused, to the resulting distortions in the financial markets, and to the chaotic bufoonery by which the Fed and the Treasury have attempted to prevent out-and-out collapse of the financial system.

I've finally decided that Harry did not, and could not, have imagined a scenario where the financial system is being run by a criminal cartel that has siphoned off most of the country's wealth, where the country's debt load is so high that default (or functional default) is the only option, where diversification no longer matters because everything is wildly inflated, and where the usual inverse correlations no longer work.

I've held out much longer than was probably prudent and am going into 100% defensive mode. Short-term treasuries, real estate with timber value, maybe a few old fashioned dividend-paying stocks with certificates. I'm not sure what else to do. Fishing hooks by the case, maybe.

Has anyone else come to a similar realization? This is seriously upsetting, and I'm fit to be tied.


Well, the principal at a leading asset management company I used to have all our investments with (they're in the DFA/Modern Potfolio Theory universe and mostly handle money from foundations and ultra-rich tech folks) has his personal money these days in 50% short-term Treasuries, 50% gold. Kind of the doomsday Buffett Portfolio (I'm referring of course to the way Buffett has things set up for his wife: 80% S & P 500, 20% T Bills).

I agree with others in this thread that it's not a matter of the Fed doing anything truly new but rather the degree of the abuse. And much as I dislike and disrespect Powell I don't think he deserves all of the blame. Massive tax cuts for the rich, gutting of the few regulations we had in place to prevent abuse (and make banks have reserves, etc.), endless stock buy-backs...the list goes on.

The same financial advisor I referenced above also has a long article on how the powers-that-be regularly distort the price of gold and that is arguably an even bigger problem with the PP these days than the once-in-a-lifetime LTT debacle we just lived through.

Personally, as a retiree with very modest assets I'm sticking to my modified Golden Butterfly (said modification consisting of replacing the STT/LTT barbell with STT/ITT's that are half nominal, half TIPS. But my wife has instructions to just move everything into Tyler's very simple and cool 80% Wellesley/20% gold portfolio if I kick the bucket first and she doesn't want to deal with things. If I were younger and still earning I'd be looking at something dead simple like Jonathan Clement's portfolio: 60-70% VT (Total World Stock), the rest in half VTIP (Vanguard short-term TIPS) and VGSH (Vanguard Short-Term Treasuries) with some emergency cash held locally or in iBonds at Treasury Direct. In the same situation (long time horizon, younger) I would also strongly consider Tyler's PInwheel Portfolio, which has a really cool mixture of real assets with globally-diversified equities and bonds:

https://portfoliocharts.com/portfolio/p ... portfolio/

That said, there's no way I'd feel comfortable holding a 4 x 25% PP. The total stock market component depends entirely on 5 FAANG stocks for its returns (thus the value of the SCV in the GB which together with the TSM component gives you something much more like a *real* TSM fund). LTTs are potentially lethal as everyone who holds them has learned of late and I don't think Browne would have recommended holding them for most of the past decade, at a minimum. The arguments for them: that they will zig when they stock market zags, and that they provide deflation protection - don't hold water. They've tanked in unison with stocks just as often as they've rebounded but people have short memories and somehow think what happened in '08 is the norm. And as William Bernstein points out in his book "Deep Risk" (which is required reading for any PP'er) devoting a full 25% of one's assets to protection against the least likely as well as least harmful of the economic scenarios Browne identified in building the PP is absurd. Then we're on to gold, which Browne included because he said it offers inflation protection - which is simply wrong, as Tyler himself proves in his excellent article on gold (see link below). Gold is great for SHTF scenarios and times of currency debasement/money printing/rapid interest rate increases and is also invaluable in hedging against sequence-of-returns risks in retirement. And while super-thoughtful writers like Ern over at Early Retirement Now have shown that the minimum stake in it required to confer these benefits is 15%, being dogmatic about 25% is silly. As for cash...well, TBills are looking like (to steal Medium Tex/J.M. Lawson's inimitable quip about Treasury bonds as a whole) "the best horse at the glue factory." Anyway, hard to see anything permanent about a portfolio that consists of 25% mega-cap-dominated U.S. stocks, 25% 30 year bonds exposed to limitless losses when interest rates spike, 25% metal with no inherent rate of return and 25% cash guaranteed to return less than the rate of inflation. You'd be better off putting the whole nest egg in a 30 year TIPS ladder (see link below).

https://portfoliocharts.com/2020/08/21/ ... e-of-gold/

https://www.advisorperspectives.com/art ... lot-easier


SUPERB!

Saving this for future study. A lot in here. May affect my future investing. Thanks!
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:22 am

joypog wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:04 pm
If the system collapses (especially with the US as the worlds reserve currency) we’re all fucked no matter the portfolio.
Exactly. There's no point in worrying about your financial portfolio in these kinds of scenarios because they will all be wrecked. Even financial portfolios that are more physical than virtual will be wrecked too: real estate destroyed in the chaos; gold made illegal to own so you can't actually use it; productive land confiscated in ill-thought-out collectivization when the masses revolt, etc.

You can't financially outrun the collapse of your country, unless you are or plan to become an oligarch who profits from the misery and chaos--which comes with its own problems. If you feel like the collapse of your country is inevitable or imminent, you need to leave that country and go to a more stable one if you have the means to do so. This isn't hypothetical or pie-in-the-sky; people who correctly anticipated the chaos of WWI or WWII and left central Europe beforehand did a lot better than the people who didn't.

But then... is the USA really going to soon collapse as the kingpin of the global financial order? This has been predicted for decades. Yes, it will happen eventually since nothing lasts forever, but is this really the moment? I don't think so. I don't see any better places for global capital to safely hide. Truly, what is the practical alternative for other foreign governments, large conservative corporations, institutional endowments, etc? China? Cryptocurrencies? The Ruble? Clearly not. Physical gold? Too much security risk, not liquid enough, buy/sell spreads and transaction costs are murder. Euros? maybe, but you have to buy Euro-deonominated assets in a specific European country, and none of them are looking stable or safe enough--let us not forget that there's currently a major land war raging in Europe! And cash Euros are being squeezed by punishing inflation right now--much worse than what we have in the USA. And this is inflation that is baked into the inherently riskier positions of Europe's globalized energy and food markets.

The future is uncertain, but it always has been. Gotta tune out the financial doom porn that has a vested interest in keeping you angry and afraid.
Last edited by Pointedstick on Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by vnatale » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:25 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:22 am

joypog wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:04 pm

If the system collapses (especially with the US as the worlds reserve currency) we’re all fucked no matter the portfolio.


Exactly. There's no point in worrying about your financial portfolio in these kinds of scenarios because they will all be wrecked. Even financial portfolios that are more physical that virtual will be wrecked too: real estate destroyed in the chaos; gold made illegal to own so you can't actually use it; productive land confiscated in ill-thought-out collectivization when the masses revolt, etc.

You can't financially outrun the collapse of your country, unless you are or plan to become an oligarch who profits from the misery and chaos--which comes with its own problems. If you feel like the collapse of your country is inevitable or imminent, you need to leave that country and go to a more stable one if you have the means to do so. This isn't hypothetical or pie-in-the-sky; people who correctly anticipated the chaos of WWI or WWII and left central Europe beforehand did a lot better than the people who didn't.

But then... is the USA really going to soon collapse as the kingpin of the global financial order? This has been predicted for decades. Yes, it will happen eventually since nothing lasts forever, but is this really the moment? I don't think so. I don't see any better places for global capital to safely hide. Truly, what is the practical alternative for other foreign governments, large conservative corporations, institutional endowments, etc? China? Cryptocurrencies? The Ruble? Clearly not. Physical gold? Too much security risk, not liquid enough, buy/sell spreads and transaction costs are murder. Euros? maybe, but you have to buy Euro-deonominated assets in a specific European country, and none of them are looking stable or safe enough--let us not forget that there's currently a major land war raging in Europe! And cash Euros is getting squeezed by punishing inflation--much worse than what we have in the USA.

The future is uncertain, but it always has been. Gotta tune out the financial doom porn that has a vested interest in keeping you angry and afraid.


As usual --- you speak GREAT wisdom! Thanks!
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by seajay » Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:55 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:22 am
But then... is the USA really going to soon collapse as the kingpin of the global financial order?
Counting populations rather than countries, and much of the global population is already moving away from the US. China, India, Russia, S America, Arabia, Africa ...etc. Setting up alternatives to the "there is no alternative". Europe is somewhat positioning to a middle road between both stance, as is Australia increasingly more focused upon stability of its local neighbors (China/India) trade.

Rather than a collapse, looks more inclined to just be a fading. And rather than a single identifiable point in time - rather just a transition.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by joypog » Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:01 pm

If I had to bet what would be the global power in 40 years—"USA VS everybody else" I would get the pessimism around such a binary outcome.

But the reality is you get to be the citizen of ONE nation...maybe two if you're lucky. So I return to the TINA question. Maybe Nigeria or India will be the next big thing, but would you bet your life on it?

If this was a liberal forum, I would totally see a case of going to some Scandinavian social welfare paradise. But Gyroscopic leans libertarian. As such I'm baffled why it's not blindingly obvious that America is the only viable option, especially after the heavy handed response to COVID in Oceania.

Maybe the move is to relocate to a less heavy handed State within our grand Union.

Though I agree with Pointedstick, the first thing to do would be to stop watching mass media - of all persuasions. I'd suggest following local or state news (not owned by a mega-conglomerate). Maybe that will lead to participation in small time politics. It won't lead to the abolition of the income tax, but you might be able to make real improvements in the government closest to you. Heck, doing something tangible may even feel more empowering than daydreams of relocating across the globe.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by boglerdude » Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:10 am

yeah I'm considering Florida. But why am I partially agreeing with joypog. Is this a trap
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by joypog » Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:50 am

Ha! It’s because I was arguing from a libertarian point of view in the second half of my post.

That said, I’d be wary about Florida. One might enjoy DeSantis trolling of teh libs, but he’s doing it with heavy handed laws.

I’d recommend a purple state that doesn’t have a long term single party rule as a better landing spot, though there aren’t many of those….
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by Hal » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:41 am

Semi-serious response to Maddy's original post ::)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C768oeSvJ5c
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by welderwannabe » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:43 am

joypog wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:50 am
I’d recommend a purple state that doesn’t have a long term single party rule as a better landing spot, though there aren’t many of those….
Nor do they usually stay that way for long.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by glennds » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:46 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:22 am


But then... is the USA really going to soon collapse as the kingpin of the global financial order? This has been predicted for decades. Yes, it will happen eventually since nothing lasts forever, but is this really the moment? I don't think so.
Even if this were the moment, I'd like to think we won't transform immediately from the dominant power to an economically collapsed third world.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by vnatale » Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:21 pm

glennds wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:46 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:22 am



But then... is the USA really going to soon collapse as the kingpin of the global financial order? This has been predicted for decades. Yes, it will happen eventually since nothing lasts forever, but is this really the moment? I don't think so.


Even if this were the moment, I'd like to think we won't transform immediately from the dominant power to an economically collapsed third world.


For certain! It'd be a long, long, long, long time wherein we'd be anywhere NOT being in the top nations of the world. If we were ever dislodged from our current position.

Have I heard too much propaganda that we are still the #1 destination for people wanting to come here from the rest of the world? Where does China rank with this? How open are they with immigrants? How many people would rather go there than here?
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by Maddy » Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:54 am

I would propose that it is the reserve status of the dollar that has allowed the U.S. to maintain its dominance in the international order. The reserve status of the dollar is also the reason why the U.S. has enjoyed its extraordinarily profligate standard of living and the privilege of being able to engage in extraordinarily reckless economic policies without consequence.

That now appears to be changing. The economic alliance between Russia, China and the rest of the BRICS--an alliance which is reported to have attracted at least 20 other countries including, most notably, Saudia Arabia--threatens to undermine the reserve status of the dollar by allowing the rest of the world to simply bypass the U.S. and trade in their own currencies (or in a basket of currencies backed by something real).

The U.S. currently produces very little. It's major export is dollars. When those dollars are no longer needed to trade and economic sanctions no longer have any coercive power, then what? Is that where military conflict and the threat of nuclear war come in?
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by Kevin K. » Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:19 am

Maddy wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:54 am
I would propose that it is the reserve status of the dollar that has allowed the U.S. to maintain its dominance in the international order. The reserve status of the dollar is also the reason why the U.S. has enjoyed its extraordinarily profligate standard of living and the privilege of being able to engage in extraordinarily reckless economic policies without consequence.

That now appears to be changing. The economic alliance between Russia, China and the rest of the BRICS--an alliance which is reported to have attracted at least 20 other countries including, most notably, Saudia Arabia--threatens to undermine the reserve status of the dollar by allowing the rest of the world to simply bypass the U.S. and trade in their own currencies (or in a basket of currencies backed by something real).

The U.S. currently produces very little. It's major export is dollars. When those dollars are no longer needed to trade and economic sanctions no longer have any coercive power, then what? Is that where military conflict and the threat of nuclear war come in?
The IMF chart in this Wikipedia article on world currency reserves shows the U.S. dollar slowly losing share to other currencies (albeit it is still dominant):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency

I certainly don't think the U.S. is alone in being "profligate" or engaging in reckless economic policies. Many EU countries have massive debt, entitlement programs far more generous than ours, even bigger problems with aging populations, etc. China and Russia are of course hopelessly corrupt totalitarian states - and let's not even get started on Saudi Arabia.

Sure the U.S. produces "very little" - if by "very little" you mean the majority of the world's technological and scientific innovation, etc. As for coercive power: we have the #1 reserve country by a country mile and the military power that is commensurately outsized. IMHO Harry Browne built the entire PP around these realities. That's one of the reasons I think people looking for international versions of the PP are misguided if not deluded.

Switching gears, surely if one believes American exceptionalism is coming to an end there are any number of portfolios one could choose to hedge against it. Holding only globally-diversified stocks, market cap weighted (e.g. a blend of 60:40 VTI:VEU or simple the all-world ETF VT) plus an appropriate amount of an unhedged global bond fund would be a minimalist way to do it, while Tyler's https://portfoliocharts.com/portfolio/p ... portfolio/ does the job with a bit more complexity while offering meaningful diversification into real assets outside of the stock-and-bond world.

Ray Dalio has been sounding the same alarms as you have here Maddy and I agree that it's worrisome but being a few billion dollars short of Bridgewater investment minimums myself these simpler global approaches are all that come to mind as practical alternatives - along with things like investing mostly or entirely in income-producing properties and skipping stock and bond market antics (which I find very appealing in concept but have no talent for).
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by jalanlong » Sat May 06, 2023 6:21 pm

Maddy wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:13 am
I'm really sorry, you guys. I'm just feel incredibly defeated about what's happening, and last night it was really getting to me. It's the long bonds that are the real nut-buster. They're down over 30 percent, and even after reading Tyler's piece, I still don't see a plausible path to recovery. And when I see the BRIC alliance picking up more countries every day, all bent on freeing themselves of the tyranny of the U.S. Treasury, there's no way I can bring myself to buy more.

The way I see it, there are worse things than sitting in cash that's depreciating 10-15 percent a year. And one of them is owning depreciating financial assets denominated in a currency that's depreciating 10-15 percent a year.

You know, you work your ass off all your life and shouldn't have to be constantly responding to the threat that it will, in one way or another, get taken away from you. I'm going to go out and prune fruit trees this morning, and maybe things will look brighter later on.

P.S. I am very much a fan of hard assets. I have held CEF for a long time and will probably continue to do so.
I had to finally let go of CEF and move to a all
Gold fund. 10+ years of waiting for Silver to return to glory and I just can’t wait any more.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by seajay » Sat May 06, 2023 7:21 pm

Maddy wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:54 am
I would propose that it is the reserve status of the dollar that has allowed the U.S. to maintain its dominance in the international order. The reserve status of the dollar is also the reason why the U.S. has enjoyed its extraordinarily profligate standard of living and the privilege of being able to engage in extraordinarily reckless economic policies without consequence.

That now appears to be changing. The economic alliance between Russia, China and the rest of the BRICS--an alliance which is reported to have attracted at least 20 other countries including, most notably, Saudia Arabia--threatens to undermine the reserve status of the dollar by allowing the rest of the world to simply bypass the U.S. and trade in their own currencies (or in a basket of currencies backed by something real).

The U.S. currently produces very little. It's major export is dollars. When those dollars are no longer needed to trade and economic sanctions no longer have any coercive power, then what? Is that where military conflict and the threat of nuclear war come in?
International trade works better when countries use a common/pegged currency, otherwise you have daily fluctuations in relative values and the costs of currency conversion overheads/drag.

Gold was used for centuries as that common currency, but periodically needs 'resets'. Imagine a island of 100 people that collectively includes 100 ounces of gold, that some years later has doubled its population size. For equality the value of gold should buy twice as much as before so that everyone generally remains just as wealthy as before. Instead of lugging gold around in the post 1930's years the US got common agreement from others to trade using US dollars and where the US would peg the dollar to gold. But as populations expanded so more dollars have to be created (in contrast in gold standard times the price of gold had to periodically be re-pegged to a higher price)

The US is the heart of capitalism, and has provided debt (money creation) in a appropriate manner to maintain good international trade flows. China wont step up to replace that any time soon, isn't open enough, wouldn't 'share' and would use it for power/control to a much greater extent than does the US.

The BRIC/Arabian/African alternative will work, for a while, until individuals such as the S American members hit problems where paying for stuff is so volatile/variable and more expensive (FX conversion fees etc). that they'll have to reconsider.

Russia sees a move away from the US dollar as weakening the US, China plays along with that as it strengthens its own position and will keep its fingers in both pies to better leave it as the dominant BRIC-AA controller, perhaps with a final transition over to a three way US dollar, Euro, Yuan along with gold 'global reserve', similar/same s existing SDR's

Predominately the US wont be able to so easily sanction (block trade/transactions clearance), and wont be able to print/spend so easily such as to fund a massive military might. But equally as the petro age draws ever closer to ending and we transition into a world of inexpensive clean energy and AI/robotics so the likes of Arabia will find that aligning with BRIC-A will be a drag-down and regret not having maintained former acquired sovereign wealth via capitalism/US.

The majority of Russian's live within continental Europe, indeed Putin once even aspired to have Russia join the EU. Russian's were becoming more European/Western-like but now with the war and eastward-reverting are inclined to see a shift towards more poverty/decline. I suspect that there'll be a period of such western-decline/eastern-rise trend, that sooner or later will have former richer member states such as Russia and Arabia again reverting to more western/prosperity focus. Levelling-up concepts are nice, but in reality means a considerable levelling-down of richer member states. If a US billionaire opts to be generous and level everyone else of the US population up by sharing out his/her $1Bn wealth to level him/herself down, then everyone else gets a one-off $3/share.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by jalanlong » Sat May 06, 2023 7:42 pm

I don’t use the PP any longer but I still listen to podcasts like the ones from Resolve Asset Management who specialize in Risk Parity portfolios. They have convinced me that if you are going to do such a portfolio then you need a lot more diversification than the PP gives you. You definitely need more commodities than just gold for inflation. You also need some managed futures funds and a smidgen of volatility etfs if you dare. Having those saved your bacon in 2022.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by D1984 » Sat May 06, 2023 8:21 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 7:42 pm
I don’t use the PP any longer but I still listen to podcasts like the ones from Resolve Asset Management who specialize in Risk Parity portfolios. They have convinced me that if you are going to do such a portfolio then you need a lot more diversification than the PP gives you. You definitely need more commodities than just gold for inflation. You also need some managed futures funds and a smidgen of volatility etfs if you dare. Having those saved your bacon in 2022.
I presume you perhaps mean actively managed vol ETFs/funds? Because in 2022 the main pure long volatility ETF (VXX) was actually down almost 24%.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by ppnewbie » Sun May 07, 2023 1:36 am

jalanlong wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 7:42 pm
I don’t use the PP any longer but I still listen to podcasts like the ones from Resolve Asset Management who specialize in Risk Parity portfolios. They have convinced me that if you are going to do such a portfolio then you need a lot more diversification than the PP gives you. You definitely need more commodities than just gold for inflation. You also need some managed futures funds and a smidgen of volatility etfs if you dare. Having those saved your bacon in 2022.
You may be interested in checking out the cockroach portfolio at mutiny funds.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by mathjak107 » Sun May 07, 2023 4:07 am

i still am not sure exactly what one would buy in the cockroach …it seems awfully complex
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by jalanlong » Sun May 07, 2023 7:57 am

D1984 wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 8:21 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 7:42 pm
I don’t use the PP any longer but I still listen to podcasts like the ones from Resolve Asset Management who specialize in Risk Parity portfolios. They have convinced me that if you are going to do such a portfolio then you need a lot more diversification than the PP gives you. You definitely need more commodities than just gold for inflation. You also need some managed futures funds and a smidgen of volatility etfs if you dare. Having those saved your bacon in 2022.
I presume you perhaps mean actively managed vol ETFs/funds? Because in 2022 the main pure long volatility ETF (VXX) was actually down almost 24%.
VIXM. It was flat overall last year but gave you lots of great rebalancing opportunities throughout the year.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by Jack Jones » Sun May 07, 2023 7:59 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:22 am
joypog wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:04 pm
If the system collapses (especially with the US as the worlds reserve currency) we’re all fucked no matter the portfolio.
Exactly. There's no point in worrying about your financial portfolio in these kinds of scenarios because they will all be wrecked. Even financial portfolios that are more physical than virtual will be wrecked too: real estate destroyed in the chaos; gold made illegal to own so you can't actually use it; productive land confiscated in ill-thought-out collectivization when the masses revolt, etc.

You can't financially outrun the collapse of your country, unless you are or plan to become an oligarch who profits from the misery and chaos--which comes with its own problems. If you feel like the collapse of your country is inevitable or imminent, you need to leave that country and go to a more stable one if you have the means to do so. This isn't hypothetical or pie-in-the-sky; people who correctly anticipated the chaos of WWI or WWII and left central Europe beforehand did a lot better than the people who didn't.
Harry Browne advocated having hard assets out of reach of your government. Doing so ensures you have the means to leave your country and go to a more stable one, as you suggest.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by mathjak107 » Sun May 07, 2023 12:30 pm

very different today ..you can bet if we made it not legal for citizens to own something and you had it stored over seas they would report it .

plus getting out of the country today may not be possible if things were coming apart here
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dualstow
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by dualstow » Sun May 07, 2023 6:22 pm

mathjak107 wrote:
Sun May 07, 2023 12:30 pm
very different today ..you can bet if we made it not legal for citizens to own something and you had it stored over seas they would report it .
I agree. I bet Harry never had to worry about his gold in Zurich, but these days the U.S. makes it a real pain in the ass for European banks. (And, if you read the WSJ, for Europeans who happened to be born in the U.S.)
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by ppnewbie » Mon May 08, 2023 9:31 pm

mathjak107 wrote:
Sun May 07, 2023 12:30 pm
very different today ..you can bet if we made it not legal for citizens to own something and you had it stored over seas they would report it .

plus getting out of the country today may not be possible if things were coming apart here
Thats a very good point. I hear that Swiss banks wont open accounts for normal US citizens because the regulatory requirements, liabilities, and overhead too great.
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Re: I'M OUT!

Post by vnatale » Mon May 08, 2023 10:01 pm

ppnewbie wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 9:31 pm

mathjak107 wrote:
Sun May 07, 2023 12:30 pm

very different today ..you can bet if we made it not legal for citizens to own something and you had it stored over seas they would report it .

plus getting out of the country today may not be possible if things were coming apart here


Thats a very good point. I hear that Swiss banks wont open accounts for normal US citizens because the regulatory requirements, liabilities, and overhead too great.


Isn't that what Tex and Craig wrote in their book?
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