Absolutely brutal - 5/5

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dockinGA
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by dockinGA » Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:38 pm

mathjak107 wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:41 pm

Same to you ……stay the fuck off my posts
I think you're telling me the same thing that the rest of the board has been trying to tell you regarding THEIR posts. And let the record show this is not a thread you started, just one of the countless ones that you've hijacked, so it's kinda rich for you to claim it's your post.

Also, I'm still anxious to hear exactly how your investment career has turned out compared to the PP/GB? We need numbers, data, etc. to back up what you claim you've done. Exactly what percentage more money do you have now than you would've had if you had invested in the PP/GB? You claim that my posts are nothing but insults, personal attacks, etc. but there's nothing remotely close to either one of those things that comes from me until you come onto other people's threads and start derailing the conversation, then refusing to respond to rebuttals and/or very pointed replies/questions from other people who have the audacity to call out some of your comments.
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I Shrugged
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by I Shrugged » Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:55 pm

I’d like to hear from someone who had a 100% stocks investing plan starting in 1960, and how they stuck with it through the crushing 15 year bear market that started in 66 or so, as their retirement outlook became more and more bleak. When by the end they were forgoing double digit interest from money market funds. How many people stuck with it? I bet not many.

Everyone who started investing in the 80s is a genius today.
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by dualstow » Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:08 pm

Smith1776 wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 2:10 pm
Well, I'm convinced. I'm putting 100% of my money into an index of micro cap bubble tea companies.
O0
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by vnatale » Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:55 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:55 pm

I’d like to hear from someone who had a 100% stocks investing plan starting in 1960, and how they stuck with it through the crushing 15 year bear market that started in 66 or so, as their retirement outlook became more and more bleak. When by the end they were forgoing double digit interest from money market funds. How many people stuck with it? I bet not many.

Everyone who started investing in the 80s is a genius today.


I am not even close to that or old enough to have done that. That person would have had to be about 80+ years old now?

What I did do was make my investment in January 2003 (nearly 20 years ago) with all new investments since then going into cash.

Have sat with that initial investment with NO changes through 2008 / 2009, March 2020, and what has been going on this year.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by dualstow » Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:45 pm

I don’t think he was expecting anyone to actually come forward, Vinny. That’s kind of the point.

However, that is impressive that you made no changes during the ‘08-09 crash!
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by vnatale » Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:32 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:45 pm

I don’t think he was expecting anyone to actually come forward, Vinny. That’s kind of the point.

However, that is impressive that you made no changes during the ‘08-09 crash!


Strictly due to my ever present investing inertia wherein I am the opposite of nimble. Never came up with any kind of better plan.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:51 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:32 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:45 pm
I don’t think he was expecting anyone to actually come forward, Vinny. That’s kind of the point.

However, that is impressive that you made no changes during the ‘08-09 crash!
Strictly due to my ever present investing inertia wherein I am the opposite of nimble. Never came up with any kind of better plan.
And it's been shown that staying in a reasonable plan will produce good enough results. And will beat most of the people who are always getting out and in and looking for the next hot thing. I have a friend who got burned in stocks as a young investor, got out and has spent his whole life (he's 65) waiting for stocks to get really, really cheap so he can buy in. I asked him at the 2009 bottom, "Is it time?", and he replied that he was waiting for Dow/gold to get to 4, or something like that.
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by Smith1776 » Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:52 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:51 am

And it's been shown that staying in a reasonable plan will produce good enough results. And will beat most of the people who are always getting out and in and looking for the next hot thing. I have a friend who got burned in stocks as a young investor, got out and has spent his whole life (he's 65) waiting for stocks to get really, really cheap so he can buy in. I asked him at the 2009 bottom, "Is it time?", and he replied that he was waiting for Dow/gold to get to 4, or something like that.
Too true. Just pick something reasonable and stick with it.
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by Vil » Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:37 am

In days like this really wondering where all hedge funds money goes, if not in cash or in short positions... ;D
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by amdda01 » Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:51 am

Vil wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:37 am
In days like this really wondering where all hedge funds money goes, if not in cash or in short positions... ;D
Agreed. And YTD brutality:

* VTI: -22.28%
* TLT: -19.97%
* IAU: -5.28%
* SHV: -0.36%
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by jalanlong » Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:49 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:55 pm
I’d like to hear from someone who had a 100% stocks investing plan starting in 1960, and how they stuck with it through the crushing 15 year bear market that started in 66 or so, as their retirement outlook became more and more bleak. When by the end they were forgoing double digit interest from money market funds. How many people stuck with it? I bet not many.

Everyone who started investing in the 80s is a genius today.
I have an older relative who has never been in anything but old-fashioned dividend stocks. He says he lives off the dividends and never, ever pays attention to the price volatility because he has no intention of ever selling them. He is leaving the stocks for his heirs. I could do that if I could find a brokerage platform that only showed me my dividends and never showed me my balance.

There are some really cool apps out there where you can put your stock portfolio in and it will break down your dividends into how much you are earning per day, per hour and per minute. Makes me feel like my money is always "working" for me!!!
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by mathjak107 » Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:16 pm

I will gladly pay him more then his dividend but I keep his shares since he doesn’t care what they are worth
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by mathjak107 » Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:18 pm

A retirement draw is based on portfolio value . Not whether the income it spins off is from dividends , total return or interest.

I sure hope you don’t use any advice from them
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by Smith1776 » Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:09 pm

A line of reasoning I find that is effective with dividend aficionados is to tell them to think of all companies as paying dividends. Some reinvest them automatically for you and others you have to reinvest manually. But they all "pay dividends". Framing that way I find is quite effective.
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by jalanlong » Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:38 pm

mathjak107 wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:18 pm
A retirement draw is based on portfolio value . Not whether the income it spins off is from dividends , total return or interest.

I sure hope you don’t use any advice from them
I have had these discussions with him over holiday gatherings. He is going with the old premise of he buys a stock one time then puts it away in a safe box forever. He doesnt have to worry about selling parts of it when he needs cash and then get into when to sell it etc. He acts like it doesn't exist except for the dividend checks coming into his account regularly. That way he says he never has to worry about overreacting to market events. That keeps him from making poor decisions he says. It's like owning a part of a business he doesnt have to run or worry about.

Believe me, he has an answer for any anti-dividend argument you could possibly come up with.
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by mathjak107 » Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:51 pm

Smith1776 wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:09 pm
A line of reasoning I find that is effective with dividend aficionados is to tell them to think of all companies as paying dividends. Some reinvest them automatically for you and others you have to reinvest manually. But they all "pay dividends". Framing that way I find is quite effective.
This is a good explanation but you know those who have no idea how dividends work will argue it to the hilt as they think of it as interest going on top of your portfolio value instead of as a withdrawal from your investment value which is what they are
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by Xan » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:08 pm

I don't see anything wrong with it. It's deciding to buy-and-hold, while getting some cash out of the deal. As far as looking/caring what the value of the stock is, if that's not something he wants to bother with, why should it bother anybody else? Isn't part of the PP philosophy to not have to worry about that kind of thing?

Seems like this dividend philosophy is a tool useful to many people to help them avoid many investing pitfalls.

And, fundamentally, this is what stock investing is supposed to be about: buying a small piece of a company and sharing in its profits. Not jumping to whatever hot thing promises exponential growth forever.
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by mathjak107 » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:34 pm

Dividends are not profits .

They are just a return of a piece of your share price …it can come from profits , borrowed money from loans. , it can come from the sale of an asset even if a loss , etc .


It is simply an amount of money the board decides to pay out of the company cash register .

Companies have paid them tight in to the financial grave yard .

It’s a withdrawal from your investment and your remaining g balance is reduced before it can trade by the same amount .

The same as a Withdrawal from any investment .

And I will gladly pay anyone a higher dividend but I keep there shares if the don’t care about portfolio value ….

When people think that they are not Spending down because they are living on dividends that is a myth and if there money is important to them then they should bother to learn because they can easily run out of money before they run out of time .

It is okay to spend dividends as part of a withdrawal rate but it still relates back to total return and portfolio value
Last edited by mathjak107 on Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by Xan » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:37 pm

Dividends certainly CAN be profits, if the company is well-run and we're doing what stock investing is supposed to be about, which is buying a small portion of a company and sharing in the profits.
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by mathjak107 » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:38 pm

Can is not the same as always are.

A 4% dividend and a draw from a non dividend portfolio of the same dollars is the same .

It is the same cash flow and balance assuming the same total return.

They both need the same share appreciation in both cases to keep paying out …
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by Xan » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:42 pm

"are not" is not the same as "always are not".
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by mathjak107 » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:45 pm

Dividends is only an amount the board Elects to pay out .

I owned a reit that ended up Borrowing money and using money that was supposed to buy more property so it bcould sustain the dividend when profits turned to losses .

Blue chips have paid dividends right up until they failed.

Profits are reflected in the share price .

The dividend has the company selling off a piece of your share price and returning it to you plain and simple…

Your profits are already reflected in the share price
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by Xan » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:47 pm

That's fine and all. What exactly of what I've said is wrong? Does anything close to being not-negative about dividends need to be attacked?
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by mathjak107 » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:48 pm

Dividends don’t have to come from profits .

They get paid from losses too…they are simply a withdrawal from the value of your portfolio or investment whether up or down.

One of the least understood segment of investing is the mechanics of them or what they represent .

So yeah , in my option myth should be. Corrected
Last edited by mathjak107 on Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Absolutely brutal - 5/5

Post by Xan » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:51 pm

mathjak107 wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:48 pm
Dividends don’t have to come from profits .

They get paid from losses too…
First, that's a distinction without a difference, as the dividend can only be paid (ultimately) from profit. When the profit dries up so does the dividend, meaning, you can only pay the dividend "out of a loss" for so long, and only from historical profit.

Second, this seems to have come from me saying that the traditional, theoretical ideal of stock market investing is sharing in the profits through dividends. Is that not correct?
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