Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by dockinGA » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:34 pm

mathjak107 wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:24 pm
Jason , dick in ga will try to find fault in any data I post ..the fact is this data and definition of safe withdrawal rates was conceived by some of the brightest finically minds on the planet ..

Just dicking around and calling some arbitrary numbers a safe with drawl rate flies in the face of what the actual definition means .

So you can run with facts or go by the bull shot dick in ga likes to try to counter with.

The only thing you can do with the pp is to monitor it in real time and the first 15 years need to see 2 to 3% real returns as an average for 4% to hold and that is for only 30 years …there is no real data I know of that has crunched the averages needed for longer
If you don't understand how Monte Carlo can be more beneficial than basing withdrawals off of a relatively tiny set of data and sequences that have occurred, you are an idiot. A person with some knowledge but no idea how to actually apply it. And certainly not ways that existing data can be studies and used to improve things.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by mathjak107 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:39 pm

The Monte carlos have to be worse than those actual dates though ..which they can be

If you compare the Monte Carlo mode in firecalc or fidelity to the actual worst case scenario data in firecalc they are damn close .so close as to really not mean much . Out of 10,0000 Monte Carlo simulations it worked out that 93.5% in a Monte Carlo simulation is actually 100% in historical

But My point was not about Monte Carlo ,it was about using charts with actual historical data going back to only 1970 and calling those results a safe withdrawal rate …READ THAT AGAIN

So in true dick in ga fashion let me say, why are you talking about Monte Carlo simulations in a discussions here no one mentioned Monte Carlo simulations.

ACTUAL HISTORICAL MUST INCLUDE THE WORST CASE SCENARIO YEARS TO BE CALLED A SAFE WITHDRAWAL RATE .



For the differences between Monte Carlo and historical you can read this

https://www.kitces.com/blog/monte-carlo ... l-returns/
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by dockinGA » Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:19 pm

mathjak107 wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:39 pm
The Monte carlos have to be worse than those actual dates though ..

If you compare the Monte Carlo mode in firecalc or fidelity to the actual worst case scenario data in firecalc they are damn close .so close as to really not mean much .

Which means you still need to compare to those worst case scenario dates..

My point was not about Monte Carlo ,it was about using charts with data going back to only 1970 and calling those results a safe withdrawal rate …

So in true dick in ga fashion let me say, why are you talking about Monte Carlo simulations in a discussions here no one mentioned Monte Carlo simulations
Because it's more valuable for a 40-50 year old retired PP investor than using the relatively limited historical data for 60/40 30 year retirements that you keep parroting.

You may not understand how it's useful, but that's ok. You've shown that you don't truly understand much of anything, honestly.

Moderators, once again mathjak has disappeared for a few days, then returned and started derailing conversations again. If I'm the only one here that has issues with this guy's post, fine. I will gladly leave and allow the forum to continue to consist of 50% mathjak posts where he regurgitates info from somewhere that he doesn't fully understand and misapplies.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by mathjak107 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:22 pm

Bull shit ,, the chart i posted. Goes out to 40 years ..and no monte carlo scenario will be eliminating those worst case dates regardless that i mentioned above …nor will there be accurate simulations on gold which went through events that were likely once in a lifetime back then .

Which goes back to The Whole discussion which we were having before your Monte Carlo bull shit , which is that going back to only 1970 with those charts will not give the results he wants because they are missing the historical dates the 4% swr is based on
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by Dieter » Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:17 pm

mathjak107 wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:02 pm
It goes out to 40 years

Image
Thanks for sharing - gives me a rough idea for my 50% ish Stock GB ish portfolio (discounting Gold, stocks aren’t all in S&P500, more BarBell in bonds, with not 100% in nominal or government)

Makes me want to play with portfolio charts — oh whatta (enjoyable) tune suck that can be
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by seajay » Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:30 am

Dieter wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:17 pm
mathjak107 wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:02 pm
It goes out to 40 years

Image
Thanks for sharing - gives me a rough idea for my 50% ish Stock GB ish portfolio (discounting Gold, stocks aren’t all in S&P500, more BarBell in bonds, with not 100% in nominal or government)

Makes me want to play with portfolio charts — oh whatta (enjoyable) tune suck that can be
A maybe interesting observation from that table. Considered as 'return of money' rather than return on money - where return of money is via instalments, the 25% stock is the lowest common denominator type choice.

40 years return of money = 2.5% SWR. No column for that but 25% stock and 3% SWR had a 98% success rate, so we might assume that 2.5% would have been 100% success.

30 year 3.33% SWR return of money. Again no column for that, but 3% had a 100% success rate whilst 4% had a 86% success rate, so again we might assume that 3.33% SWR was likely 100% successful or near-as.

25 year 4% SWR return of money, we can directly read from the table for that and 25% stock had a 100% success rate.

20 year 5% SWR return of money, 94% success rate, not great, but pretty close, perhaps in the worst case where we fell just a little short on return of our money, 6% loss/less perhaps.

15 year 6.66% SWR return of money. Well 6% had a 99% success rate, 7% had a 75% success rate, so perhaps into the 80's percent success rate. Investing should be for the longer term, 20 years+, when less than that then volatility risk starts to present itself as seems evident here.

That's all with just bonds partnering the stock. Adding in some gold historically tended to help reduce risk, and instead of Intermediate Treasuries a 1 and 20 year barbell is a close approximation of a 10 year treasury bullet.

So 25% stock, as per the above, and a equal split of the remainder between 1 year Treasury, 20 year Treasury, Gold ... seems a good choice for a reasonable return-of-money asset allocation. And given that SWR are based on worst case outcomes in the average case we might anticipate not only having had the return of our (inflation adjusted) money via instalments (SWR), but likely some residual portfolio remaining at the end as a 'terminal bonus'.

Should you drop long dated treasuries because yields are low? Well historically at times stocks were high, at other times gold was high ...etc., such cases are incorporated into SWR tables/data. A problem with timing, such as dropping a asset because of seemingly high valuations is that today's ceiling can become tomorrows floor, high valuations can become even higher. Also with timing to exit a asset also involves timing to re-enter back into that asset, being correct twice is difficult to do and more often works out no better than having not bothered with timing. Long dated treasury price declines as yields rise should be seen as (buy) opportunities, not costs. More so if any losses against already held bonds tend to be offset by gains in other assets. Adding-low/reducing high type trading via simple once yearly rebalancing back to equal weightings 'trading' tends to be good-enough, likely middle road between the best and worst traders outcomes who use other methods.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by seajay » Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:58 am

jason wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:34 pm
I've been doing the HBPP for almost 9 years and I've done decently well with it. It's been a bit frustrating to see inflation soaring lately and my portfolio basically going nowhere or dropping a bit. And it's been especially frustrating to watch Treasuries drop a lot and it seems the stage is set for them to crash further. But at the same time, I am sticking with the PP, and sticking with Treasuries, because I'm too scared about making market timing decisions. I've made wrong decisions more times than I care to remember. Are most people here holding steady with the PP? Are a lot of people here who have been doing the PP for a long time getting out of Treasuries?
If you watch regularly and are concerned about shorter term volatility, then one medicine is to replace the STT/LTT barbell with a 10 year Treasury ladder, and not mark to market.

Harry did suggest holding volatile stocks, so perhaps 25% Small Cap Value instead of TSM. Combine that with 25% gold and 50% in a 10 year Treasury ladder and year to end of August 2022 was enduring a -3% nominal loss.

Image

A 1 and 20 year treasury barbell approximates a 10 year central bullet (buying a 10 year, holding for a year and rolling that into another 10 year). A 10 year ladder buys each of 1 .. 10 year treasury bonds and each year as a bond matures you roll the proceeds into another 10 year treasury. When equally weighted the yearly return without marking to market is simply the average of all of the yields of those bonds at the time of purchase.

You can retrieve historic 10 year Treasury yields from FRED
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by jalanlong » Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:22 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:32 am
Thanks for the backup, I Shrugged.

Again, this is why so many smart people who used to post here and lean right stopped. It's exhausting.
+1000
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by vnatale » Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:27 am

jalanlong wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:22 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:32 am

Thanks for the backup, I Shrugged.

Again, this is why so many smart people who used to post here and lean right stopped. It's exhausting.


+1000


Dualstow can chose to spin off what I Shrugged, pubchief, you, and me are saying here into a different topic but ....

While there is legitimate concern expressed regarding the lack of sufficient paring of prior posts, going the total opposite direction can be even worse.

Your response has absolutely no context.

But you did the best you could with MangoMan's response as you quoted all of it.

Pugchief's initial response lacked any context as a standalone post. It's enigmatic with no idea to what he was responding to.

it would have been helpful if he had included some quoting in his response.

Because I did want to see what the two of you were referring to that required me to keep scrolling in the 11 or so pages of posts in this topic in an attempt to locate MangoMan's response to see exactly what he was responding to.

Bottom line? Use the proper amount of quoting.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by flyingpylon » Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:49 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:27 am
Because I did want to see what the two of you were referring to that required me to keep scrolling in the 11 or so pages of posts in this topic in an attempt to locate MangoMan's response to see exactly what he was responding to.
If you click the little up arrow to the right of “MangoMan wrote:” it will take you right to the quoted post, no scrolling necessary.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by vnatale » Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:37 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:49 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:27 am

Because I did want to see what the two of you were referring to that required me to keep scrolling in the 11 or so pages of posts in this topic in an attempt to locate MangoMan's response to see exactly what he was responding to.


If you click the little up arrow to the right of “MangoMan wrote:” it will take you right to the quoted post, no scrolling necessary.


After ALL of these years here I finally learn that! Thanks!
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by Cortopassi » Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:02 pm

Whew, that was an interesting 10 pages!

I think people are in much better moods when the markets, and treasuries, and gold are up!

Not due to thinking about interest rates going up, but rather wanting to start selling puts, I sold virtually all my TLT and stock holdings in early Jan.
That turned out to be a great thing, at least for 10 months now. We'll see if/how I ever get back in though.
----------------
Jason (I think) at 50, yeah, you've got a while before social security. I don't know your cash or living situations, and I know I'll get ball busted by some, but have you looked at a straight income annuity? https://www.immediateannuities.com/ for quick numbers.

At your age, a life annuity with a $1,000,000 premium will pay you at least $4,917 a month for the rest of your life. 5.9% payout rate. Yes, you give up your principal. But you would have a virtually risk free $59,000 a year for the rest of your life and can thumb your nose at market gyrations, the price of gold, and not have a care what interest rates are doing.

If I had enough, I would definitely fund one of these for peace of mind.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by dualstow » Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:25 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:49 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:27 am
Because I did want to see what the two of you were referring to that required me to keep scrolling in the 11 or so pages of posts in this topic in an attempt to locate MangoMan's response to see exactly what he was responding to.
If you click the little up arrow to the right of “MangoMan wrote:” it will take you right to the quoted post, no scrolling necessary.
This is a very important and useful tool. I think it's underused because it is not immediately apparent that those arrows are links. Thanks for pointing it out, flyPy. 👍 I should have done that a long time ago.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by vnatale » Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:48 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:25 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:49 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:27 am

Because I did want to see what the two of you were referring to that required me to keep scrolling in the 11 or so pages of posts in this topic in an attempt to locate MangoMan's response to see exactly what he was responding to.


If you click the little up arrow to the right of “MangoMan wrote:” it will take you right to the quoted post, no scrolling necessary.


This is a very important and useful tool. I think it's underused because it is not immediately apparent that those arrows are links. Thanks for pointing it out, flyPy. 👍 I should have done that a long time ago.


EXTREMELY useful! I don't even know if I ever noticed it before. It is so tiny.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by vnatale » Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:13 pm

dockinGA wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:52 am


I've done some math quite a while ago, using reasonable expected returns and volatility for the PP, and did a Monte Carlo simulation, and found a swr for longer retirements in the 50-60 year range to be more like 3.3% instead of 4%, with 90% confidence if I remember correctly.


From this post and subsequent posts in this topic you seem to be a great believer in the concept of Monte Carlo simulations? If so, how do you react to these Monte Carlo flaws that I just read in a book that I am reading?

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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by vnatale » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:33 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:52 pm

I'm due to buy new long term bonds now.

Broken record here, but: because my vp is larger, I find it a bit easier to play by the rules (i.e. bands) in the pp. I realize that is 100 miles from being all in. It's like the pp is a pet project. I suppose that's because the "money I can't afford to lose" is small. I’m willing to take more chances with the bulk, buying more stocks and investment grade bonds.

Even so, I'm delaying the long bond purchases a bit more. Why? Because they keep taking about raising raises several more times. I haven't sold the long bonds that still have ~ 20 years on them, so...I'll forgive myself and just allow myself this brief delay. If I miss out, I miss out.


Am I correct that the all-time low was 1.27% on April 27, 2020 with September 26, 2022 at 3.71%?

Which, in the short-term, supported your decision NOT to buy?

mathjak has innumerable times preached that the Long-Term Treasuries may be a broken part of the Permanent Portfolio due to their having been a 40 year bull market with them, which may be coming to an end and now the beginning for a long period in the other direction?

In the following (abbreviated table from here: https://www.macrotrends.net/2521/30-yea ... ield-chart) all the greens would have been good times to sell / bad times to buy while the reds would have been bad times to sell / good times to buy?

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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by dockinGA » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:37 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:13 pm
dockinGA wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:52 am

I've done some math quite a while ago, using reasonable expected returns and volatility for the PP, and did a Monte Carlo simulation, and found a swr for longer retirements in the 50-60 year range to be more like 3.3% instead of 4%, with 90% confidence if I remember correctly.
From this post and subsequent posts in this topic you seem to be a great believer in the concept of Monte Carlo simulations? If so, how do you react to these Monte Carlo flaws that I just read in a book that I am reading?

Capture1.JPGCapture2.JPGCapture3.JPGCapture4.JPGCapture5.JPGCapture6.JPG
I'm aware of some of the limitations, but I consider MC simulations to be at least as useful as using the very small dataset we have available to us, meaning the small sample size of historical 'rolling' returns, especially for something like the PP that has even less rolling returns available due to gold's history. As with all tools, one must be aware of their limitations and then use them appropriately. Used incorrectly, they may be worse than worthless.

I'm curious on which book this information came from. I realize I'm reading much of this out of context, but it seems to be pinpointing flaws in MC simulations as it pertains to pure market timing or short term market predictions or something along those lines. Trying to use MC simulations to predict short term movements of the market is a fool's errand, no doubt. Trying to predict a large range of hypothetical outcomes for a portfolio over 50-60 years, and basically ignoring outliers and focusing on 90th percentile type results, is much less of a fool's errand. Trying to determine investment returns over the next 50-60 years and basing it off a small sample of 30 year rolling returns from a single country is also something of a fool's errand.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by Hal » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:37 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:13 pm

From this post and subsequent posts in this topic you seem to be a great believer in the concept of Monte Carlo simulations? If so, how do you react to these Monte Carlo flaws that I just read in a book that I am reading?

Capture1.JPGCapture2.JPGCapture3.JPGCapture4.JPGCapture5.JPGCapture6.JPG

Thanks Vinny. That was interesting. Also BelangP noted that bonds and shares become more correlated that longer you hold them, so they are not two random, uncorrelated variables. BelangP's reaction was to only hold Gold and Shares. The Idiosyncratic Whisk (not a typo) website solution was to hold only Cash and Shares.

Edit: From memory, using a blend of the two approaches, the optimal percentages were:
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by vnatale » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:43 pm

kwg2005 wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:09 pm

ppnewbie wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:50 pm

I added to my 30 year treasuries about 2 months ago. I think I’m at about 17ish percent (in a GB). I may add a bit more soon. They do make me very nervous though, with Biden taking every step possible for Countries to distrust the dollar with their reserves.


I am staring to worry about an actual default in the US in the next 10-20 years. I don't think the US government can run crazy deficits forever, and increasing taxes isn't popular. People want all the goodies, but not the taxes to pay for it. There really aren't enough rich people to just tax the rich to pay for everything. Increase in taxes, or decrease in govt spending are both unpopular and both would start a major recession/depression. Until mid 2021, I worked in Aerospace making parts of the F35 and other military planes. It was very much heavily padded work programs. But it employed a lot of people. Military Industrial Complex. At some point that stuff will have to come to an end or the American Empire won't be able to even pay interest on it's debt. It can now at super low rates, but could it at 10% or 20%? I am talking myself into lowering the amount of LTT I hold.


Strongly agree with what you have written here? Anyone disagree?

In Massachusetts there will be referendum vote. Currently everyone is taxed 5%. It's flat. Not graduated or progressive at all like federal taxes.

The referendum is to tax all those with a $1,000,000 plus income at an additional 4%. Of course, they pitch it as "only" 4 pennies per dollar, which is completely intellectually dishonest to me saying it that way rather than the simple "4%".

I'm 100% against it and will vote against it. Not voting in my own self-interest as my income will probably not ever be 5% of that. But it's an example of what you cite above in that "the people" want the extra government spending but they themselves will not be paying for it (as the referendum's advocates point out).

These people with the $1,000,000 plus taxable incomes are the ones who are primarily responsible for creating jobs for many other people and they made a lot of sacrifices to earn that much money. Sacrifices that the vast majority of people would be completely unwilling to make.

I'm not envious at all of their incomes. They earned it and they are entitled to it and should not be subject to some of it being taken away for the benefit of those who want the benefits without putting in the work.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by vnatale » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:47 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:56 pm


But 30 year is at 2.76%. Still some room to zero.


Of course. But in the intervening five months is has gone UP nearly a full percent.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by vnatale » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:51 pm

Vil wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:07 pm

Just read "The psychology of money" by Morgan Housel for second time. One can get fooled by the fact its short and quite easy-going read, though I cannot stop recommending it due to being kind of generous in investing wisdom. "There are few financial variables more correlated to performance than
commitment to a strategy during its lean years
" .. how one can state it any better ? ;)


Based upon your one recommendation but seeing it at Amazon with 4+ stars and 28,781 (!!!!) reviews, I had to instantly buy it! Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by vnatale » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:53 pm

kwg2005 wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:18 pm

[ I'm currently reading E. Michael Jones' Barren Metal. I'm 750 pages into the 1450 pages. Quite an interesting book but I wish he condensed it down some.


With only 25 reviews, but most paramount a price of $255.55 that is NOT a book I was compelled to instantly buy!

What did this book cost you?
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by vnatale » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:56 pm

kwg2005 wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:22 pm

They could easily cut military spending, which is astronomical.


NEVER easily! All this spending is benefiting where many voters live. So while all voters would support cutting military spending elsewhere they'd never want it cut in the areas where they live. Consequently, collectively all the representatives and senators would receive intense pressure from both voters and lobbyists to not cut any military spending that would result in reduced jobs in their areas of governing.
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by vnatale » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:59 pm

kwg2005 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:11 pm


Today I sold off some of my LTT position. I will probably regret doing it. I just don't see keep putting good money after bad. I've been pretty loyal to the PP for about 10 years, with the only exception being one of my accounts having a small allocation to international. I would have started the PP more than 10 years ago but for years I didn't do it because I didn't like the LTT portion. But I finally just did it. When there were downfalls in stocks or gold, it never bothered me because I know they will eventually go back up. The thing about bonds is, we had a 40 year bull run. The best case scenario I see is the rates go up until something crashes and they fall again. So basically they go up to say 3 or 4 percent, then a market crash so they fall again to 2 percent or less. If it does that over and over, then it will act as a counter balance to the stock prices, but doesn't actually have much returns. So for the last 10 or so years, 1/2 of the portfolio had almost no return. LTT did go up in value due to the falling interest rates, but it's unlikely they will continue to fall to zero, and they're most likely going up, which will negate all of the gains we saw on the way down. I think that they will go back down once the fed breaks something by increasing rates too much. This is why I didn't sell everything, in case I'm wrong. I just reduced my position. As stated before, the bond market is so manipulated and I don't think Harry Browne anticipated QE and now QT and all of that. I really wish I knew what he would recommend today.


1. I assume that now with six months of hindsight that you have ZERO regret?

2. This is all so well stated and echoes what mathjak has preached on and on and on, regarding the 40 year bull run.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Are most people here sticking with Treasuries?

Post by vnatale » Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:07 pm

Lorddoskias123 wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:57 am

I’m comfortable staying the course, despite feeling that we may be entering a “tight money” economic period where the big three assets may decline. No one knows the future. To each their own.


Is there any consensus here that subsequent to when the above was written in April 2022 that at some point we have entered the "tight money" economic period?

Does the following at all relate to there being a "tight money" economic period.

Generally I'm in the left lane of the highway so as to get somewhere as quickly as possible. But on the rare times like today when I am ahead of schedule I park myself in the right hand lane and put the cruise control at the speed limit - 65.

Invariably when I do that about 98% of the cars on the highway are flying by me. I drive a Honda Accord which is probably getting 27 to 30 mpg under those conditions. The faster one drives the worst your mileage is. Plus many of these vehicles flying by me are SUVs which makes their mileage inherently worse then mine all things equal.

I experience this in all economic times. Contrast to the politicians constantly bleating about bad economic times when I'm seeing people waste money or at least spend more money than they have to. Or, being able to afford it .. which does not line up with their descriptions of "dire" ecnomic times. I don't think it is just the rich who are driving on the same highways as me.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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