Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

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vincent_c
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by vincent_c » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:00 am

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:55 am
vincent_c wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:40 am
A lot of you guys are focusing on issues that are no longer really debatable in crypto and arguments from 2017 that the market has already parsed and deemed as no longer presenting risks etc.
Keep in mind, folks in this forum are primed for bitcoin, but not necessarily familiar with the space or all of the detailed arguments, politics, etc.

I think addressing objections here with care is worth the (my) time.
No I agree, I do think you're doing a fairly good job addressing those questions and it's great for the forum. More people need to realize it actually is time to plan for moving to crypto. Ignore bitcoin at your own peril if you're holding gold. It's time to gradually hedge the position.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by bitcoininthevp » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:57 am

doodle wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:20 am
My big problem with Bitcoin is mostly with the hype and exagerrated pessimistic and mistaken claims regarding our monetary system that surround it. It comes across a lot as very cultish.... to a degree at times which makes fervent gold bugs look entirely sane and rational. There is also a lot of money in Bitcoin (as I'm sure there is with metals as well) that has been driven there by the speculative fervor that the recent returns in Bitcoin have inspired and the crowd it has atracted reminds me in many ways of the those who are continuously in search of the next get rich quick and easy scheme. This isnt investing as much as jumping in on the hype train trying to make easy money. The chart of Bitcoin looks very similar to other historic bubbles....that should be worrying to anyone who is heavily invested.
Bitcoin is definitely like a religion of sorts in terms of the energy and passion around it.

In terms of the bubble talk, weve been here before:
bitcoininthevp wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:43 pm
You’re right. Then the bubble will pop down to $50k and everyone will call it dead. Like they did from $30->$1, $260->$40, $1200->$200, $19k->$3k.

Do you see the pattern? How many decades and increasingly larger bubbles did tulips or beanie babies have?
To be clear, bitcoin is getting into the bubble part of its cyclical phase. But I dont see it stopping til at least 6 figures personally. Then crash 75% or so. But the thing is, it keeps doing this. This is a new asset monetizing in a non-linear way.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by ppnewbie » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:50 pm

vincent_c wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:58 am
BTW I heard about YOLO money above.

If more of you guys are researching this space, one of the coins I'm in is AVAX (avalanche) and I would add this to your list to research. Technically I believe it has better technology than ADA or DOT and it's better for YOLOing.

Remember, buy first the amount you're willing to lose if your research doesn't support your thesis so you won't regret if it goes up while you're researching. It's better to lose money and then get out when your research shows you want nothing to do with the project.
I was waiting for an AVAX shout out. Whatever happens with BTC in the long run. The world is going to be a very different place in 20 years. CBDC’s, Defi, Decentralized exchanges, DAOs, smart contracts.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by ppnewbie » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:00 pm

doodle wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 am
There is no mechanism for expanding money supply so it is heavily deflationary..not to mention additional deflation caused by lost tokens which will continue to increase. This poses a huge range of problems if your goal is to extract maximum productivity out of economy.
This is something that has bothered me as well about BTC as a functional currency. There is no inflation or fractional reserve. I hear gold supply increases at around the rate of population increase. And it can be fractionalized by modifying its value to a currency.

And the point that smart contracts / crypto are supposedly immutable...and falable. There is no recourse to appeal to the matrix if you have an issue.

This is a fascinating new direction of the world.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by bitcoininthevp » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:15 pm

ppnewbie wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:00 pm
This is something that has bothered me as well about BTC as a functional currency. There is no inflation or fractional reserve. I hear gold supply increases at around the rate of population increase. And it can be fractionalized by modifying its value to a currency.
New gold is mined based on the value of gold, no? Higher gold price->more companies doing more crazy things to access gold.

> And it can be fractionalized by modifying its value to a currency.

What does this mean? Gold can be cut up in pieces?
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by vincent_c » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:18 pm

ppnewbie wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:00 pm
There is no recourse to appeal to the matrix if you have an issue.
Trusted intermediaries will always exist as long as there are people who are not competent enough to manage their own risks.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by vincent_c » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:22 pm

ppnewbie wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:00 pm
doodle wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 am
There is no mechanism for expanding money supply so it is heavily deflationary..not to mention additional deflation caused by lost tokens which will continue to increase. This poses a huge range of problems if your goal is to extract maximum productivity out of economy.
This is something that has bothered me as well about BTC as a functional currency. There is no inflation or fractional reserve. I hear gold supply increases at around the rate of population increase. And it can be fractionalized by modifying its value to a currency.

And the point that smart contracts / crypto are supposedly immutable...and falable. There is no recourse to appeal to the matrix if you have an issue.

This is a fascinating new direction of the world.
There is a difference between being divisible vs being collateralizable.

Certainly fractional reserve banking will eventually be done in the crypto space where you can collateralize your bitcoin and get loans so credit is created. Right now with defi it's the opposite where you have to over-collateralize your contract in order to get a loan.

Bitcoin is not meant to the utility token of the economy which needs to inflate. In crypto terminology we have "coins" that do this so ETH serves this role in the ETH economy.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by ppnewbie » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:01 pm

vincent_c wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:22 pm
ppnewbie wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:00 pm
doodle wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 am

Right now with defi it's the opposite where you have to over-collateralize your contract in order to get a loan.
Enter Litentry!
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by doodle » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:34 pm

vincent_c wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:22 pm
ppnewbie wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:00 pm
doodle wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 am
There is no mechanism for expanding money supply so it is heavily deflationary..not to mention additional deflation caused by lost tokens which will continue to increase. This poses a huge range of problems if your goal is to extract maximum productivity out of economy.
This is something that has bothered me as well about BTC as a functional currency. There is no inflation or fractional reserve. I hear gold supply increases at around the rate of population increase. And it can be fractionalized by modifying its value to a currency.

And the point that smart contracts / crypto are supposedly immutable...and falable. There is no recourse to appeal to the matrix if you have an issue.

This is a fascinating new direction of the world.
There is a difference between being divisible vs being collateralizable.

Certainly fractional reserve banking will eventually be done in the crypto space where you can collateralize your bitcoin and get loans so credit is created. Right now with defi it's the opposite where you have to over-collateralize your contract in order to get a loan.

Bitcoin is not meant to the utility token of the economy which needs to inflate. In crypto terminology we have "coins" that do this so ETH serves this role in the ETH economy.
Isn't that the expansionary monetary shenanigans Bitcoin is trying to convince combat? And in a decentralized system who decides whether to issue loan? And if loan is not repaid, does some amount of Bitcoin disappear?

Also, other than being granddaddy of crypto, what advantage does bitcoin have over crypto that has addressed transaction limitations and consume far less power?

Part of the reason for gold's staying power is that as the elements go it is completely unique in it's properties and is the best suited as money. The same can't be said for Bitcoin as from my perspective competitors have already improved upon it.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by ppnewbie » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:37 pm

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:15 pm
ppnewbie wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:00 pm
This is something that has bothered me as well about BTC as a functional currency. There is no inflation or fractional reserve. I hear gold supply increases at around the rate of population increase. And it can be fractionalized by modifying its value to a currency.
New gold is mined based on the value of gold, no? Higher gold price->more companies doing more crazy things to access gold.

> And it can be fractionalized by modifying its value to a currency.

What does this mean? Gold can be cut up in pieces?
Sorry meant to say that gold can be revalued relative to a currency. But....so can anything else including crypto. So I think the fractional point is moot for any hard asset. But I do wonder about the fixed supply of BTC vs gold. I get that gold mining increases and decreases based on various forces. But historically, I believe it is something in the 2 percent per year range. I could be wrong on that, just have heard that number a few times.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by vincent_c » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:56 pm

doodle wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:34 pm

Isn't that the expansionary monetary shenanigans Bitcoin is trying to convince combat?
Yes utility tokens/coins are completely different to bitcoin.
doodle wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:34 pm
And in a decentralized system who decides whether to issue loan? And if loan is not repaid, does some amount of Bitcoin disappear?
It's peer to peer lending via a smart contract so there is no counter-party risk.
doodle wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:34 pm
Also, other than being granddaddy of crypto, what advantage does bitcoin have over crypto that has addressed transaction limitations and consume far less power?
Again, bitcoin is not competing with utility coins/tokens. There are layer 2 solutions that allow bitcoin scale but at the end of the day we're talking apples and oranges if you want to compare bitcoin with ethereum or other blockchain protocols/dapps.
doodle wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:34 pm
Part of the reason for gold's staying power is that as the elements go it is completely unique in it's properties and is the best suited as money. The same can't be said for Bitcoin as from my perspective competitors have already improved upon it.
The same can be said about Bitcoin.

Silver is an improvement upon gold in many ways because it has more uses. But from the perspective of what is better money gold is better than silver. Just like from the perspective of what is better as digital gold, right now bitcoin is better in many ways because of its first mover advantage and the fact that it's good enough.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by bitcoininthevp » Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:59 pm

doodle wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:34 pm
vincent_c wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:22 pm
ppnewbie wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:00 pm
doodle wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 am
There is no mechanism for expanding money supply so it is heavily deflationary..not to mention additional deflation caused by lost tokens which will continue to increase. This poses a huge range of problems if your goal is to extract maximum productivity out of economy.
This is something that has bothered me as well about BTC as a functional currency. There is no inflation or fractional reserve. I hear gold supply increases at around the rate of population increase. And it can be fractionalized by modifying its value to a currency.

And the point that smart contracts / crypto are supposedly immutable...and falable. There is no recourse to appeal to the matrix if you have an issue.

This is a fascinating new direction of the world.
There is a difference between being divisible vs being collateralizable.

Certainly fractional reserve banking will eventually be done in the crypto space where you can collateralize your bitcoin and get loans so credit is created. Right now with defi it's the opposite where you have to over-collateralize your contract in order to get a loan.

Bitcoin is not meant to the utility token of the economy which needs to inflate. In crypto terminology we have "coins" that do this so ETH serves this role in the ETH economy.
Isn't that the expansionary monetary shenanigans Bitcoin is trying to convince combat? And in a decentralized system who decides whether to issue loan? And if loan is not repaid, does some amount of Bitcoin disappear?

Also, other than being granddaddy of crypto, what advantage does bitcoin have over crypto that has addressed transaction limitations and consume far less power?

Part of the reason for gold's staying power is that as the elements go it is completely unique in it's properties and is the best suited as money. The same can't be said for Bitcoin as from my perspective competitors have already improved upon it.
Bitcoins code can be copied and you and I can make doodle coin this afternoon. But it wouldn’t have community, innovation, developers, ecosystem integrations, liquidity, security (mining), or lindy effect behind it. So those are the properties of Bitcoin that can’t and haven’t been copied.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by vincent_c » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:17 pm

See litecoin.

A hardforked “better” version of bitcoin...
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by whatchamacallit » Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:12 pm

I still don't believe in it but my very small slice of gbtc is up 30% since I bought it last week.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by Ugly_Bird » Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:38 pm

whatchamacallit wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:12 pm
I still don't believe in it but my very small slice of gbtc is up 30% since I bought it last week.
Yes, finally GBTC is doing better after the premium sunk.
At what price you are planning to start selling it?
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by whatchamacallit » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:20 pm

Ugly_Bird wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:38 pm
whatchamacallit wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:12 pm
I still don't believe in it but my very small slice of gbtc is up 30% since I bought it last week.
Yes, finally GBTC is doing better after the premium sunk.
At what price you are planning to start selling it?
I will probably sell half if it doubles. Every day has been up day since I had it. Sure feels like I am pushing my luck.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by Ugly_Bird » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:30 pm

whatchamacallit wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:20 pm
Ugly_Bird wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:38 pm
whatchamacallit wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:12 pm
I still don't believe in it but my very small slice of gbtc is up 30% since I bought it last week.
Yes, finally GBTC is doing better after the premium sunk.
At what price you are planning to start selling it?
I will probably sell half if it doubles. Every day has been up day since I had it. Sure feels like I am pushing my luck.
OK. Same plan here. So, we are talking close to $80 level. This is when BTC would probably reach about $90k. Hopefully sometime this year :-)
Problem is that with GBTC it is easy to miss the apex as we cannot trade it at night and on weekends. Well, whatever happens, at least it is in the tax deferred account... :-)
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by doodle » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:27 pm

In one sense, bitcoins success might ultimately herald it's downfall. Although only a psychological issue, the price at this point (at least for my psychology) discourages any interest....in the same way I'm not interested in Louis Voutin and Hermes. I look at marketplace and compare my options for 60k and honestly a volatile internet token just doesn't seem that appealing. With wages pretty much stagnant and not really going anywhere I don't see how much more retail money will find this attractive. It's almost as if bitcoin has become a speculative asset for hedgies and elites...that's a turnoff for me.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by doodle » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:32 pm

Seems like bitcoins obsession in becoming a pricy speculative asset has undercut it's more interesting mission in becoming a viable means of marketplace exchange. That's a shame as it would be cool to transact in tokens....it's just not feasible with people hodling and the extreme volatility makes such transactions problematic. This strikes me as something that should be a concern in the crypto community as it's becoming one more asset that is leading to further wealth stratification and rewarding individuals (and now large institutional money) for speculation instead of productive labor output into our economy
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by bitcoininthevp » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:41 pm

You can buy a fraction of a Bitcoin so there’s not a valid comparison to other $60k assets that are not divisible.

Additionally it’s price going up actually adds to its utility. Money is the most salable good so adding to the price adds to bitcoins total liquidity.

This enables more (bigger) players to enter as well.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by bitcoininthevp » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:45 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:32 pm
rewarding individuals (and now large institutional money) for speculation instead of productive labor output into our economy
Bitcoin is a savings technology. It’s meant to be money and money is a place for savings. In our recent modern times we forget that since our currency is constantly devalued and the central banks policies result in “savings” now having to be in stocks for example.

To be sure there’s huge speculation in the space but how could a new asset go from being worth zero to being the worlds money without price appreciation and volatility? (Which draws speculators)
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by Ugly_Bird » Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:06 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:32 pm
Seems like bitcoins obsession in becoming a pricy speculative asset has undercut it's more interesting mission in becoming a viable means of marketplace exchange.
Sounds like about gold :-)
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by doodle » Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:20 pm

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:45 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:32 pm
rewarding individuals (and now large institutional money) for speculation instead of productive labor output into our economy
Bitcoin is a savings technology. It’s meant to be money and money is a place for savings. In our recent modern times we forget that since our currency is constantly devalued and the central banks policies result in “savings” now having to be in stocks for example.

To be sure there’s huge speculation in the space but how could a new asset go from being worth zero to being the worlds money without price appreciation and volatility? (Which draws speculators)
Part of the issue with savings is that on a large scale it is deflationary and withdraws money from circulation creating an artificial shortage, driving up price and affecting it as a stable unit of account and limiting it's availability to fufill it's role as a means of exchange.

Just a short glance through history I think will show why gold is a poor form of currency for these same reasons.

Productive real world economic activity shouldn't be hamstrung by an artificial shortage of something that is created out of thin air. If you got labor and materials and people are cold...build houses. That decision shouldn't hinge of whether or not there is enough "money" or not to do that.

We're bitcoin to become the world's currency today it would be economically catastrophic. Humans have a hard time understanding the difference between money and wealth. It's the goods and services and products that money helps to facilitate that improve our quality of life. I think oftentimes we get the tail wagging the dog.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by doodle » Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:25 pm

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:41 pm
You can buy a fraction of a Bitcoin so there’s not a valid comparison to other $60k assets that are not divisible.

Additionally it’s price going up actually adds to its utility. Money is the most salable good so adding to the price adds to bitcoins total liquidity.

This enables more (bigger) players to enter as well.
I get the liquidity argument...that said, I'm speaking psychologically so this isn't entirely rational...I'm just saying...what's less interesting to me than a 60k internet token?...being only able to afford a fraction of said internet token.

At some point the Ponzi scheme becomes too pricy...and call it what you will but both gold and bitcoin are essentially ponzi greater fool assets.
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Re: Bitcoin as a complement or alternative to gold in the PP

Post by doodle » Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:26 pm

Ugly_Bird wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:06 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:32 pm
Seems like bitcoins obsession in becoming a pricy speculative asset has undercut it's more interesting mission in becoming a viable means of marketplace exchange.
Sounds like about gold :-)
Golds qualities like bitcoins make it an extremely crappy means of exchange.
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