Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:08 pm

As of note of interest, Walter Mondale trumped Ronald Reagan in their first debate.

And Romney trumped Obama in their first debate.

So, there's still hope for Trump, however slim.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:09 pm

Report From the First Presidential Debate
By P.J. O'Rourke

On Monday night, presidential candidates Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton met for their first head-to-head debate. What was the evening's big news?

Deion Jones returned a 90-yard interception to score a touchdown and cap the Atlanta Falcons' victory over the New Orleans Saints, 45-32!

I didn't get to see that, though. I was watching the presidential debate – so you didn't have to.

Compared with the NFL matchup, watching the presidential debate was like standing on the sidelines at a flag football game between a couple of Montessori schools.

The only talented player on the field was NBC anchor Lester Holt, and what Holt was talented at was piling on Trump and making late hits for Team Hillary.

The candidates themselves were no good.

Trump has the gut issues going for him. But he can't articulate them well enough to make your reasoning fully agree with the feeling in the pit of your stomach. And he has trouble giving concise and to-the-point examples of what he means.

Trump is too fond of the "broad stroke." He's trying to paint a detailed picture of what's wrong with American politics while using only a four-inch brush.

Hillary is good with the details – too good. Details are all she has. Lots and lots of highly detailed little thises and thats. Like she's furnishing a dollhouse instead of filling the White House.

Hillary kept saying, "I have a plan." It's a phrase that always sets off alarms for me. People who really have a plan are acting on the plan, not standing around saying they have one.

"I have a plan" is right up there with "Hold my beer and watch this!"

Who won the debate?

That assumes it was a debate. It wasn't. It was a tedious rehash of issues that both candidates had already made a hash of.

This was interspersed with some name-calling that commentators characterized as "heated," "harsh," or even "scorching." Which shows what wimps these commentators are. None of it would get you punched in the nose on the playground.

Hillary had the best riposte. She brought up the notion, yet again, that Donald is someone who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the nuclear launch codes.

Trump: "That's getting old."

Hillary: "But good."

And Trump had, by far, the best line. He saved it for the very end: "Hillary has experience, but it's bad experience."

The winner was whomever you wanted to win. As far as I can tell from clicking around sources on the Internet, the candidate who won was the candidate that the source in question had already decided to declare victorious.

It reminded me of Soviet judges scoring Olympic gymnastics back during the Cold War.

Thus, the Washington Post and all its opinion columnists said Hillary won. Ditto for the New York Times. And in CNN's instant viewer polling, 62% of respondents gave the laurels to Hillary.

On the other hand, the Drudge Report's instant polling awarded Trump the prize by 82%. And Charles Krauthammer – who, to my mind, is the smartest person on TV – called the debate "something like a draw."

Did we "learn" anything from the presidential debate?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: No.

And yet, the debate turned out to be highly informative – if you turned the sound off.

The event was broadcast with a split screen so that each candidate was visible while the other was talking (or, to use a technical term, "blabbing"). The blab was dull, but the expressions on the candidates' faces were fascinating.

Trump was serious of mien. He was concentrating intently on what Hillary was saying. He sometimes developed a little twitch of annoyance. Other times, he wore a small frown of disagreement. But mostly, he looked deeply thoughtful. (And let's be frank, this is a man who could stand to do a bit more deep thinking.)

Hillary is supposed to have a whole bunch of deep thoughts – concerning her endlessly convoluted plans to fix all the problems under the sun. But there she was, thoughtlessly making rude grimaces whenever Trump spoke.

Mom always said, "You shouldn't make faces because your face may get stuck that way." Hillary's face got stuck that way.

She spent the whole evening with a wipe-that-look-off-your-face look on her face. She smirked. She sneered. She radiated smugness.

She repeatedly mugged for the camera with a ham actor's pantomime "gasp of disbelief." Except she is no actor. It came off like a cheap infomercial for new dentures.

She indulged in nasty smiles of condescension. She adopted a pout that said, "What's a smarty like me doing with a dummy like him?"

Hillary had an air about her as if she just couldn't believe that somehow, oh my gosh, she had been dragged up on stage to debate a talking dog.

Hillary had a plan for the debate. Of course she did. Hillary has a plan for everything. And she stuck to her plan. The plan was to be utterly dismissive of Trump and anyone who backs him and to treat every single thing he has to say with total contempt.

As I've said before, I'm not happy with either of these presidential candidates. It's a tough election. Do you roll the dice with Trump? Or do you let Hillary just set the bones down on the table, so you crap out again like always?

I don't care, personally, if Hillary mocks Trump. But I do care, personally, when the nature of democracy itself is mocked.

Trump is a man who decisively triumphed in the contest for the Republican Party's presidential nomination. And he is, as of the latest polling, in a dead heat with Hillary in the presidential race. When Hillary doesn't treat Trump with any measure of respect for the public support that he has achieved, she isn't insulting him, she's insulting American voters.

If politics in a democracy has one rule, it's, "Don't insult the voters."

Regards,

P.J. O'Rourke

Source: The Stansberry Digest
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:09 pm

Pointedstick wrote:Assumed rates of return of 8% and above are common in government pension fund projections everywhere. It wasn't unreasonable in the 80s and 90s, but nobody updated the methodology in the 2000s, and the whole house of cards is starting to come down.
What do you think is gonna happen with your parent's pensions from IL? Do you think the pensions are sustainable since they can't reduce or make any cuts? Is it gonna blow up?
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by Xan » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:13 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:Assumed rates of return of 8% and above are common in government pension fund projections everywhere. It wasn't unreasonable in the 80s and 90s, but nobody updated the methodology in the 2000s, and the whole house of cards is starting to come down.
What do you think is gonna happen with your parent's pensions from IL? Do you think the pensions are sustainable since they can't reduce or make any cuts? Is it gonna blow up?
I'm afraid that "blow up" looks a lot like a federal bailout. :-(
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:35 pm

Higher taxes in the short term, and pensioners just die in the medium to long term. They aren't being replaced. It's just a waiting game, and then the system eventually becomes solvent again.
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by MachineGhost » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:45 am

Image
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by MachineGhost » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:07 am

I think we can put this to bed now!
No one with an open mind and sound reason who witnessed the sniffing, sipping, scowling, raging, interrupting display of petulance and agitation that was Donald Trump’s debate performance on Monday could possibly argue that he won that debate or that he is the kind of person to whom we should entrust the presidency.

It appears that Trump thought it wise to wing it.

...

It takes a tremendous ego and a healthy dose of hubris to believe that you can simply bluster your way through a presidential debate, but if anyone thinks that way, it’s no surprise it’s the uniquely underqualified and overblown king of bragging and whining: Donald J. Trump.

In the end, Clinton ran rings around him as he didn’t even seem prepared to answer the most obvious questions and attacks.

...

Trump completely bombed in that debate and it’s his own fault. His staggering arrogance and breathtaking incompetence were laid bare, as he had no prepared remarks from which to read and no gaggle of other candidates behind whom he could hide.

He stood there, combative but hardly cogent, revealing to the whole country and the world that the man who promises to lift America from the ashes is himself going down in flames.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/29/opini ... meout.html
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by Maddy » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:00 am

/
Trump completely bombed in that debate and it’s his own fault. His staggering arrogance and breathtaking incompetence were laid bare, as he had no prepared remarks from which to read and no gaggle of other candidates behind whom he could hide.

He stood there, combative but hardly cogent, revealing to the whole country and the world that the man who promises to lift America from the ashes is himself going down in flames.
It is not hard for me to surmise that he simply doesn't think well on his feet.
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by MachineGhost » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:23 am

Maddy wrote:It is not hard for me to surmise that he simply doesn't think well on his feet.
I question if he thinks well at all. I really would like to know if his business success is due to delegating out to competent and superior people better than himself because that is what you have to do to become obscenely successful. Do you really think he came up with his platform positions himself considering much of it reads like Republican orthodoxy? But, the same argument probably could be made about Slick Hilly -- but she's just not trying to be someone who she isn't. We know who she really is... a careerist political hack who's shtick in trade is exploiting fear and loathing for personal power and riches. How's Trump doing any better on that score?
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by MachineGhost » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:31 am

MangoMan wrote:Rahm Emanuel just announced a huge new hiring plan for the Chicago Police Dept to combat all of the gun violence.
Gee, maybe they're getting ready to "stop and frisk" and take their guns away! I love the cognitive dissonance between that and "racial profiling". Just because blackies and brownies are over-represented as criminals doesn't mean its the latter. They're will be bad pigs that abuse it, yes, but exceptions don't make the rule as Reub is always fond of implying. So we should tolerate a perpetual criminal underclass because we're afraid of offending the sensibilites of non-criminals? Make up your mind... its one or the other.

We need to go all Tombstone on these scumbags. But if there's any hint that its because of their skin color, all hell ensures. ::)
Last edited by MachineGhost on Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by MachineGhost » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:40 am

Benko wrote:And picking a president who does that is bad why?
It has to do with whether Trump is humble and humile enough to credit others were credit is due. I haven't seen him do much of that -- if at all -- about his business success. He seems to be proud of business success and employing lots of people but recognition of their contribution to his success seems very lacking.

In the Oval Office, you want someone who seriously listens to the diversity of opinions from the staff. Does Trump have that capability or is his narcissistant ego too large to take in what anyone else says seriously? Even Giuliani is seriously frustrated with him which implies he doesn't listen.

Sure, its great that someone can finally appeal to all the frustrated, disenfranchised voters and not be oh-yet-another-talking-political-robot like all that have come before, but again, is a volatile Trump the kind of behavior and attitude you really want in the Oval Office?

I'm seriously thinking I need to protect myself from a Trump win and accelerate the time-line to be fully invested in the PP. His doppleganger in the Phillipines pulled it off, so it's not a remote risk. Now the entire country is leaving the sphere of US influence.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:21 pm

I'm not talking about attrition among government employees in general, but rather pensioners. New government employees are being offered better defined contribution packages and worse defined benefit packages. Eventually this new generation will outnumber the oldsters with their golden parachute pensions.
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by Maddy » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:19 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
Maddy wrote:It is not hard for me to surmise that he simply doesn't think well on his feet.
I question if he thinks well at all. I really would like to know if his business success is due to delegating out to competent and superior people better than himself because that is what you have to do to become obscenely successful. Do you really think he came up with his platform positions himself considering much of it reads like Republican orthodoxy? But, the same argument probably could be made about Slick Hilly -- but she's just not trying to be someone who she isn't. We know who she really is... a careerist political hack who's shtick in trade is exploiting fear and loathing for personal power and riches. How's Trump doing any better on that score?
I guess I never assumed otherwise. If he can put together a thoughtful, conservative team that does the managing, I'll be happy as can be. Given Trump's background, a penchant for micromanaging or an inability to delegate is not likely to be one of his downfalls.
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by Reub » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:47 pm

The NY Times says Trump debated poorly and you just accept it, MG? Are you slipping?
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by MachineGhost » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:49 pm

Reub wrote:The NY Times says Trump debated poorly and you just accept it, MG? Are you slipping?
He debated poorly before an opinion piece in the NY Times wrote about it way better than I ever could. That was the point. I called it a draw because he did manage to attack Slick Hilly when not in one of his self-indulgant rantings, but that does not imply I thought he debated well. Attacking a political robot is bound to appeal to those disenfranchised white voters (like myself), but unfortunately they alone are no longer enough to guarantee a victory.

Trump's got to truly swing it out of the park in the next debate to gain momentum with the majority left-leaning swing voters or it's truly over. The electoral college is just too insurmountable without that happening. There is no path to victory unless he sweeps.
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:03 am

Thing is, most of the electorate does not know or care how to "properly" score a debate. So it's quite possible to lose the debate based on technical points but win the election based on emotional points. And if we've ever had an election based on emotion, this is it. It can be frustrating and/or baffling to those of us that place value on policy, articulateness, etc. (as I suspect most of us here do) but the reality is that stuff just doesn't seem to matter as much. It is what it is.
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by Benko » Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:21 am

flyingpylon wrote:Thing is, most of the electorate does not know or care how to "properly" score a debate.
1. The majority of the people think the country is on the wrong track and we expect them the vote for the best debater? Why should anyone care how to properly score a debate?

2. Hillary's main point has been Trump is unfit/crazy, etc. Is that the impression that anyone who saw the debate (I didn't) received? If not, I'm skeptical of Trump's (40th) demise.
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:24 pm

Sweet Jeezus, Trump's not getting the message at all... he's doubling down on the soap opera crap. ::)
Donald Trump ramped up his feud with former Miss Universe Alicia Machado on Friday, calling her “disgusting” and accusing her of having a sex tape.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tru ... aad9baa8f6?
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:37 pm

Benko wrote:
flyingpylon wrote:Thing is, most of the electorate does not know or care how to "properly" score a debate.
1. The majority of the people think the country is on the wrong track and we expect them the vote for the best debater? Why should anyone care how to properly score a debate?
To clarify, I'm not saying they should or shouldn't, simply that they don't. Nor do I for that matter. But what I am trying to say is that all the hubbub about who "won" the debate is rather pointless.
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by Benko » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:38 pm

flyingpylon wrote:what I am trying to say is that all the hubbub about who "won" the debate is rather pointless.
+1
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:14 pm

Simonjester wrote:what a depressing contest, a battle between the unqualified and the unqualified..
-Clinton is a career criminal, and pathological lair with a plan to further a decidedly un-American/anti-American agenda for her own personal and financial benefit... if we let that happen we are doomed..
-trump is an egotistical, erratic, buffoon whose biggest qualification is he is not Hillary, and the only redeeming feature of his campaign is he "may" actually do one (if we got lucky) of the sensible things he has been in favor of before he wastes the rest of his term in petty feuds with other idiots, politicians, or foreign officials....
trump is the "no choice.. only choice" and that being the state of American politics.. i think we are already done for...
I hate to say it but I would prefer even Nixon at this point. And that is saying a lot.
Simonjester wrote:
no kidding, how sad is it that he was a tenth of the crook Hillary is and multiple times the statesman and politician trump is.... how far we have fallen...
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by Reub » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:20 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
Simonjester wrote:what a depressing contest, a battle between the unqualified and the unqualified..
-Clinton is a career criminal, and pathological lair with a plan to further a decidedly un-American/anti-American agenda for her own personal and financial benefit... if we let that happen we are doomed..
-trump is an egotistical, erratic, buffoon whose biggest qualification is he is not Hillary, and the only redeeming feature of his campaign is he "may" actually do one (if we got lucky) of the sensible things he has been in favor of before he wastes the rest of his term in petty feuds with other idiots, politicians, or foreign officials....
trump is the "no choice.. only choice" and that being the state of American politics.. i think we are already done for...
I hate to say it but I would prefer even Nixon at this point. And that is saying a lot.
Were you even in diapers when Nixon was Pres?
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:35 pm

Reub wrote:Were you even in diapers when Nixon was Pres?
Were you???
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by Maddy » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:43 am

TennPaGa wrote: What bothers me about Trump more than that he’s a misogynist pig is that he’s so stupid as to think that this stuff matters. Here’s a man who has a real shot at becoming president, but six weeks before the election, he’s calling a national TV show to talk about this crap, even though there’s nothing he can say that makes him look good. His sense of reality is crackpot, and his lack of self-discipline staggering.
That's certainly one interpretation, but it's this same painfully blunt and uncensored demeanor that caused him to soar in the polls--and to keep on climbing. So perhaps "stupid like a fox" is a fairer assessment.

He continues to be the only guy in the room who's calling a spade a spade, whether it relates to the nation's debt or the fact that a beauty queen get-away driver is fat. That he lacks the necessary self-discipline to keep his mouth shut is only one possibility; the other is that he recognizes that with every politically incorrect jab he's galvanizing the support of a large segment of the country for whom freedom of speech and relief from an oppressive regime of thought police is the paramount issue.
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Re: Clinton-Trump: 9/26 Debate

Post by Reub » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:57 am

Gary Johnson is the Libertarian candidate. Is anyone here happy with him?
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